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Lots of ancient chariot wheels reside in museums around the world, and photos of them are available, so why do you use a sketch as proof? A drawing can be done by anyone and proves nothing.
What? These are archeological drawings, not someones doodle. This is valid for studying the design of ancient artifacts.
What? These are archeological drawings, not someones doodle. This is valid for studying the design of ancient artifacts.
Like the bushman paintings depicting horse sized penis for men is useful in studying anatomy.
After all the alleged skills of foundry work they had developed, you know the science behind it all, the correct chemicals/minerals to add in the process, so sad they did not quite figure out that a 4 spoked wheel did not really make for a strong wheel. Strange that the 8 spoked wheel (more appropriate) was not seen as the better evidence and maybe th depicter's chisle broke before he finished his pic or died all of a sudden.
Amazing what you folk take as "credible" evidence to support your myths.
Maybe you should investigate what constitutes a perfect spoked wheel. I know some modern bicycles have 3 spoked areodynamic cast wheels but of course we have CAD and a whole lot more knowledge today than 4-6k years ago.
Carbon fiber wheel
Also odd that folk kind figured out that spoked wooden wheels with a tire of metal made for a lighter wheel - yet I am sure that these ancient foundry technicians of Egypt did not quite figure that one out for themselves.
I read the link, it was mostly about extracting copper from ore not iron. Iron is mentioned yes but are we now to assume that copper and iron are found in the same ore? By that I mean of usable quantities. You assume that iron is extracted at the same temperature that steel melts at? Not the same and you need coke and lime to make cast iron over and above the iron ore.
You made mention of gold, hence I am assuming they would not use a soft metal like gold to cast wheels, seeing that gold was like money back then. Inferred gold plating was done I challenged and then you state that electricity is not required for gold plating which BTW requires the dissolving of gold by acids to start off with.
You link says 4000BC and you did too. Flood circa 2000BC IOW 4000 years ago not 6000 which your YEC says when the everything was created - hence your argument is moot. Hence the flexi timelines as the flood preceded the exodus just in case you have forgotten your chronology.
If you cannot stay within the parameters of your beliefs, then it shows that your sources are not credible. Like one would expect the Egyptian archeological sites to be better informed of their own history.
Oh wait of course, everything we need to know of Egypt is in the bible.
In the link I provided, there is at least three short chapters on the use of Iron by Egypt. And it clearly states, that iron was used by Egypt from a very early time period.
I have no idea, why you are suggesting that I am assuming Egypt's iron and copper had to come from the same ore. What, do you believe Egypt only had one mine? LOL . The link I provided you, states that most of Egypt's mining of iron was done in the eastern desert, and Sinai Peninsula.
The wheels found had gold leaf on them, they were not electro plated.
The flood of Noah occured long before the pyramids. And that is why it was spoken of in the Book of Genisis. The Book of Genisis was written after the flood, yet the flood occured before the Pyramids were built. Sumerian Cuneiform writings have been recovered that are 2,000 years B.C., and they speak of the flood. And Linguistic experets believe those writings were copies of the orginal story. And they believe the orginal story goes back much further. The pyramid of Djoser, is believed to be the oldest Pyramid dating to 2630 B.C. The flood is dated to of occured from somewhere between 3,000 to 4,000 B.C.
And there is a great deal to be learned from evidence outside of the Bible, and that evidence confirms the Biblical account.
Last edited by Campbell34; 04-07-2009 at 11:37 PM..
Like the bushman paintings depicting horse sized penis for men is useful in studying anatomy.
After all the alleged skills of foundry work they had developed, you know the science behind it all, the correct chemicals/minerals to add in the process, so sad they did not quite figure out that a 4 spoked wheel did not really make for a strong wheel. Strange that the 8 spoked wheel (more appropriate) was not seen as the better evidence and maybe th depicter's chisle broke before he finished his pic or died all of a sudden.
Amazing what you folk take as "credible" evidence to support your myths.
Maybe you should investigate what constitutes a perfect spoked wheel. I know some modern bicycles have 3 spoked areodynamic cast wheels but of course we have CAD and a whole lot more knowledge today than 4-6k years ago.
Carbon fiber wheel
Also odd that folk kind figured out that spoked wooden wheels with a tire of metal made for a lighter wheel - yet I am sure that these ancient foundry technicians of Egypt did not quite figure that one out for themselves.
The drawing was done by Stephen P. Harvey, who is almost a legend. He is one of the worlds leading Egyptologist. Yes, it is amazing who we Christians look to for credible evidence. Yet, somehow you think a bushmans paintings from the past, are equal to sketches from a man who received his Ph.D. with honors from the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies. And he received his B.A. magn com laude with Distinction in Archaeloogical Studies from Yale University.
So, you believe ancient paintings from a bushman, are equal to the sketches done by an Egyptologist from Yale University who receieved his Ph.D. with honors?
Of course, this is the kind of thinking that is required to believe the Theory of Evolution, and without a doubt, you have all the qualifications needed to be a true Evolutionist. LOL
In the link I provided, there is at least three short chapters on the use of Iron by Egypt. And it clearly states, that iron was used by Egypt from a very early time period.
I have no idea, why you are suggesting that I am assuming Egypt's iron and copper had to come from the same ore. What, do you believe Egypt only had one mine? LOL . The link I provided you, states that most of Egypt's mining of iron was done in the eastern desert, and Sinai Peninsula.
Aah but you fail to answer the question of the 4000BC flexi timeline cited by both you and your article. See I do read and can count and know the flexi timelines of the YEC
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The wheels found had gold leaf on them, they were not electro plated.
Care to explain the process of gold leaf application and while you are about it show proof that the Egyptians had already perfected this skill in circa 1400BC when the pyramids were built or 4000BC according to you and your link.
While you are about it, explain how the application was permanent and did not erode away. BTW I have already read up everything on guiding. Just curious in your sources of edukayshun.
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The flood of Noah occured long before the pyramids. And that is why it was spoken of in the Book of Genisis. The Book of Genisis was written after the flood, yet the flood occured before the Pyramids were built. Sumerian Cuneiform writings have been recovered that are 2,000 years B.C., and they speak of the flood. And Linguistic experets believe those writings were copies of the orginal story. And they believe the orginal story goes back much further. The pyramid of Djoser, is believed to be the oldest Pyramid dating to 2630 B.C. The flood is dated to of occured from somewhere between 3,000 to 4,000 B.C.
Flexi timelines at work. That puts the oldest pyramid before the circa 2000BC date of the alleged flood.
The flood may have been local hence records from that area and is no proof of an impossible global flood.
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And there is a great deal to be learned from evidence outside of the Bible, and that evidence confirms the Biblical account.
Yeah right, if you close one eye drink some strong likker, stand on your head while whistling yankee doodle out of your ear.
Lots of ancient chariot wheels reside in museums around the world, and photos of them are available, so why do you use a sketch as proof? A drawing can be done by anyone and proves nothing.
The drawing was done by Stephen P. Harvey who is one of the worlds leading Egyptologist, and he is not anyone.
The drawing was done by Stephen P. Harvey, who is almost a legend. He is one of the worlds leading Egyptologist. Yes, it is amazing who we Christians look to for credible evidence.
Finally an admission of sorts.
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Yet, somehow you think a bushmans paintings from the past, are equal to sketches from a man who received his Ph.D. with honors from the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies. And he received his B.A. magn com laude with Distinction in Archaeloogical Studies from Yale University.
Yup a reproduction of a 4 spoked wheel with an 8 spoked wheel in the same pic is sorta proof irrefutable for the valve handwheel seen at the bottom of the ocean and conveniently left there at the bottom when a simple recovery could determine the age of the wheel and support your case.
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So, you believe ancient paintings from a bushman, are equal to the sketches done by an Egyptologist from Yale University who receieved his Ph.D. with honors?
Sure do, the sketches are supposed to be copied from the original, I wonder if there is a photo of it and why seeing he does not appear to be dead or that old for that matter and a photo was not provided instead of a sketch. My dad died at 81 3 years ago and has pictures of his brothers and sisters as youngsters so it is strange don't you think? Mind you strange is the norm so forget that.
Google is your friend:
Oh dear, a 6 spoked wheel - guess that blows the 4 spoked wheel then?
And another - I guess they must have been strong to carry their chariots on their shoulders hey?
Never had the idea that these were depictions rather than accurate engineering drawings? I guess not?
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Of course, this is the kind of thinking that is required to believe the Theory of Evolution, and without a doubt, you have all the qualifications needed to be a true Evolutionist. LOL
Yeah I am sure fooled by hundreds and thousands of fossil records, age of the Vic falls, ice cores dating back 750k, Varves dating back waaay beyond the 6k YEC model and of course those pesky caves, all of which you never had an answer for earlier other than your non applicable flexi flow rates.
You certainly have all the non qualifications for a YEC the distinction of which is ignore the evidence that contradicts your POV and second on the list "make crap up as you go along" and thirdly "ignore it when I contradict myself"
Aah but you fail to answer the question of the 4000BC flexi timeline cited by both you and your article. See I do read and can count and know the flexi timelines of the YEC
Care to explain the process of gold leaf application and while you are about it show proof that the Egyptians had already perfected this skill in circa 1400BC when the pyramids were built or 4000BC according to you and your link.
While you are about it, explain how the application was permanent and did not erode away. BTW I have already read up everything on guiding. Just curious in your sources of edukayshun.
Flexi timelines at work. That puts the oldest pyramid before the circa 2000BC date of the alleged flood.
The flood may have been local hence records from that area and is no proof of an impossible global flood.
Yeah right, if you close one eye drink some strong likker, stand on your head while whistling yankee doodle out of your ear.
The Ark of the Covenant was made of wood, but covered in Gold. The Children of Israel learned that ability while they were in Egypt. If you ever take the time to look at ancient Egyptian artifacts, you will see they had that ability. It was no big thing for the Egyptians who were in a position of power to have gold covered wheels.
The flood occured long before 2,000 B.C. More likely between 3000 to 4000 B.C. There is new evidence from the Gulf of mexico that now also indicates a global flood. consider link below. I might point out, there are other writings from the kings of Babylon who speak about the flood, and they mention how they enjoyed reading the writings of those who lived before the flood. And there is another tablet that speaks of 10 kings that lived before the Deluge came.
The Ark of the Covanent was made of wood, but covered in Gold.
Which has never been seen by modern man and yes I know guilding was something that was possible. Just not on chriot wheels except maybe for the kings or pharaohs not the average military man. Surely the guilding would have been more spectacular if the chariot itself was done?
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The Children of Israel learned that ability while they were in Egypt. If you ever take the time to look at ancient Egyptian artifacts, you will see they had that ability.
Yes the Egyptians may have not the Israelites as they were on a trek hence they likely did not have the tools and of course the made a golden calf so these slaves of yours which somehow were never mentions in Egyptian records were the master craftsmen? If anything they wee slave labor in building like hauling big stones, maybe a lucky slave was used to beat gold to a sheet but really this is a bit of a stretch and why now discuss a non existent artifact as proof.
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The flood occured long before 2,000 B.C. More likely between 3000 to 4000 B.C.
Wel then that I suppose debunks the dispensationalism argument then? You know 2000+2000+2009+1000 = 7000, or are you ignoring that in this discussion?
The whole foundation of the YEC claims 6035 years ago. Is this POV evolving?
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There is new evidence from the Gulf of mexico that now also indicates a global flood. consider link below.
A church site yeah right.
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I might point out, there are other writings from the kings of Babylon who speak about the flood, and they mention how they enjoyed reading other writings of those who lived before the flood. And there is another tablet speaks of the 10 kings that lived in Babylon before the Deluge came.
The cores were analyzed in two different investigations—by Cesar Emiliani of the University of Miami, and by James Kennett of the University of Rhode Island and Nicholas Shack of Cambridge University. Both analyses pointed to a dramatic drop in the salinity of the water, providing compelling evidence of a vast flood of fresh water into the Gulf of Mexico thousands of years ago.
Ice melt?
Cesar Emiliani explains the results: "A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave." He adds, "We know this because the oxygen isotope ratios of the foraminifera shells show a marked temporary decrease in the salinity of the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. It clearly shows that there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago. There is no question that there was a flood and there is also no question that it was a universal flood" ("Noah, the Flood, the Facts," Reader's Digest, U.S. edition, September 1977, p. 133).
It is also worth mentioning that the radiocarbon dating used to establish the number of years is imprecise after 4,000 years, so the time of this universal deluge could be closer to the 4,300 years described in the Bible as the time of the biblical Flood.
It is hard to believe that if the Flood were only a local event, there would be 80,000 different accounts of it from around the world that describe it as universal in scope. GN
You love contradicting yourself don't you? Do you ever read the crap links you post? Why would scientists use c14 to get a 11k record? So I guess from the article there were more than 8 survivors. Your proofs of themselves contradict their claims. These articles are for the uneducated in both science and the bible.
Even if all the ice melted, which it would have had to in a global flood or IOW, the rains and springs of the deep being the cause and not the ice melting being the cause, there is not enough water in the ice to submerge all the landmass in the world.
But then of course you ignore the ice cores having a 750k record. Tell me does ice float in America or does it sink? Maybe it is a northern hemisphere phenomenon as here in the southern one, it floats. Oh wait I have been to London and sure enough ice floats there too.
Lastly, why does your linked article state;
One of the most fascinating scientific discoveries in recent times regarding a universal flood came from some scientists who were not searching for any evidence of the Flood.
Why no dates or specifics? Conveniently omitted so that no one can corroborate their claims.
Another recent discovery that could have a relation to the inundation of the Gulf of Mexico is the finding by geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman of the sudden flooding of the Black Sea basin around 6,000 to 7,000 years ago (according to their dating). "The salt water," says Smithsonian magazine, "poured through the deepening channel, creating a waterfall 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls. In a single day enough water came through the channel to cover Manhattan to a depth two times the height of the [former] World Trade Center, and the roar of the cascading water would have been audible at least 100 miles away" ("Evidence for a Flood," April 2000, electronic version).
Well this flood of the black sea is well known as a result of the ice melt and not a global flood, the Mediterranean sea is also thought to have been formed in a similar way explaining the salt mines located 65m below sea level.
You really need to research more. I rebut your claims from memory. I am sure anyone will find floods of the Mediterranean (more than one scenario) and the black sea should they choose to look.
When I weed through the story of the Exodus and get past the colorful details, I tend to see a few details that MAY tell another side of story if not the real story. The commonly accepted story (well amongst Christians) is that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and their god intervened and delivered them after a series of miraculous acts that drove the Egyptians to their knees. When the Egyptians could not take any more, they practically ran the Hebrews out of their land, however, there are some details in the story that might just lead to another conclusion. Is there more to the story?
In Exodus chapter 3, we are told that Yahweh meets Moses in a desert encounter and they have a conversation. God tells Moses that he is going to use him to go to Pharaoh to request the liberation of his people, the Hebrews. He then tells Moses that he is to gather the elders from amongst the people and approach Pharaoh and request a three-day journey into the desert to sacrifice to their god.
Some point out this was merely a formal "feeling out" request of the Pharaoh so that it could be shown up front that Pharaoh was not going to let the Hebrews go, however, the following verses seem to indicate something more on a grand scale. In addition, the following verses are also rather puzzling. God tells Moses that Pharaoh will not let them go so he will have to intervene and deliver the people and upon their exodus out of Egypt, they are to "borrow" silver and gold articles as well as clothing and place them on their [Hebrew] children. What is interesting, however, is that this act would be called plundering.
Two questions jump out. Why was Moses going to request a three-day journey into the wilderness when in the final analysis, the plan was to leave Egypt for good? Secondly, why were the Hebrews commanded to borrow articles from their Egyptian rivals when, again, in the final analysis there was no intention to return anything nor do we ever read they returned these borrowed items. Now plundering would be another matter and would be a better description of what may have transpired because none of these items were ever returned. Considering human nature, this would seem more realistic, but some will take the road of faith and claim that there was a divine mover who worked the hearts of the Egyptians over to sympathize with the Hebrews and as a result, they willingly gave the valuable items to the Hebrews. In this regard, the story then takes on the idea that the Hebrews simply asked for the items and the Egyptians willingly gave or they gave them up voluntarily. Any idea of plunder/stealing is removed.
Then the plagues came. Some have pointed out that these plagues were nothing more than natural events that came about as a result of seismic and volcanic activity in the area, notably from the tremendous volcanic eruption 700 miles away on the Mediterranean island of Thera,* a blast considered to be one of the greatest in human history.
Seismic activity may have ruptured the ground beneath the Nile and allowed poisonous carbon dioxide gas to escape into the waters and shoreline. The resulting effect would create a reddish hue to the Nile's waters giving the appearance of blood (the biblical account points to Moses initiating the event with God's help when he stretched out his hand and struck the waters of the Nile). The gas would also kill nearby grazing livestock and produce boils on the skin of humans. Fishes would die as they cannot escape, but animals like frogs can hop out and find safety further inland, perhaps taking refuge amongst human habitations. Lack of clean water could produce an outbreak of lice and dead fish would gather flies. It is not surprising that all of these plagues came about as a result of the Nile becoming polluted when the waters became poisoned with carbon dioxide.
A huge sky blackening ash cloud may have reached as far as parts of Egypt and darkened the daytime sky and affected the climate which might explain the plague of darkness. The lava blast could have feasibly dropped a hail of fire on the Egyptian landscape which could account for the plague of raining fire and hail. Did hordes of locust also make it to Egypt in search for food, arriving from other areas affected by the blast?
All of the above would be mere speculation of course if we did not have modern examples of such things. In 1986 at Lake Nyos in Cameroon, the lake turned blood red, fishes died, people and animals near the lake died and others broke out with boils on their skin. Africa has three such known lakes (another in Cameroon and one in Rwanda). Lake Nyos is actually atop the crater of a dormant volcano and the other two lakes are also in volcano zones. In addition, it is no modern secret volcano ash can blacken the daytime sky and plunge temperatures. I personally stood on the steps of my grandmother's house in Nevis in the middle of the day in darkness caused by ash from the volcanic eruption on the nearby island of Montserrat 27 miles away.
After these plagues and the mysterious deaths of Egypt's firstborn, the Bible tells us that Pharaoh orders Moses to get the Hebrews out of his land probably feeling the Hebrews were the reason for the all the disasters, a cursed people, so to speak. On their way out the Hebrews plunder the Egyptians who may have been in shock and grief and maybe even afraid of the Hebrews. The bible then tells us that after the Hebrews left Egypt, Pharaoh has a change of heart, a change initiated by God we are told, and he decides to go back after the Hebrews and bring them back to servitude. What is odd about this is that we are told that Pharaoh is the one who orders the Hebrews to leave his land, but then later we are told that Pharaoh was TOLD that the Hebrews had fled the land indicating he was apparently not aware of this exodus and then he decided to pursue them. Playing devil's advocate here, it can easily be deduced that what we may have had was a foreign people (the Hebrews) who, in the eyes of the Egyptians, may have used various national disasters to their advantage, topped off by plundering [stealing] of their property who then escaped during a national crisis. Pharaoh's pursuit fails (bible mentions yet another miracle that aided their deliverance) and the Hebrews/Israelites eventually go on to butcher their way to the domination of Canaan.
Thoughts?
*Some have argued that the date of the Exodus should actually be pushed back and in doing so, this would place it within the same time frame as the eruption of Santorini.
While some have gone off on a tangent, there are some very valid questions here that still have not been addressed.
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