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This topic was taken from another thread, which was pages long. If you didn't see it, I am re-posting/beginning a new one here. This is from someone who questioned the existence of God, and my response as "proof" of God. To other Christians who read this, this is not to battle doctrine, but rather to offer "proof" of God's existence to many who asked for it.
Originally Posted by jimhcom The problem I have is the logic of the whole story. Let me see if I got this right. God made us imperfect, he knew he was making us imperfect as he knows everything. He knew we would "sin" in his eyes. He then has his son pay for our sins by dying. We all die, but somehow his death is more meaningful than ours. Although he really did not die, which kind of calls into question how big a sacrifice he made. Anyway, now we must "believe" that he died for our sins in order not to be tourtured for the rest of eternity. But if we do believe we get to float around on a cloud for eternity. And the point of this whole exersize is what? Personally I cannot believe something that does not make sense to me, it is just the way I am. I could pretend I believed but I would be lying to myself. Would that fool God into letting me into heaven? So I am left with the conclusion that God knew I would be who I am prior to making me, and yet made me anyway knowing he was setting me up to be tortured forever. Is the imperfection of mankind our mistake or his? Perhaps there is somekind of supeme being, I don't know, but if there is, it seems to me they would have a more logical reason for the creation of the Universe than that. _________________________________________________
A RESPONSE DIRECTED TOWARD ATHIESTS WHO ASK A CHRISTIAN TO PROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE:
Forgive me if I respond by using color-coded answers to your statements. I just wanted to clarify some things that Christians believe and how these things are misconstrued by Athiests, or misunderstood. So my plea to the Athiests is this. Pretend you and I are friends. Best friends. I am asking you, my friend, for a favor. Please don't get angered by my question, but please just do me this honor. I am not a "pat on the back, don't worry... God loves you" type of "messenger". I'm a psychologically sound, down to earth individual who is here as a friend..... so please, re-read the statement above and understand what the poster is saying. Then read my post below. If you never ever read another thing about God on this forum or anywhere else, please read what I wrote below and pay attention to every word.....
First of all, yes, He knew we humans would sin. He brought Himself into human form on the earth. He named that human Jesus. Jesus would be the only one (because He was God in human form) that would never sin. Because Jesus was human, He would be called the "Son" of God, because a human cannot be called God Himself (for the "but" part, please read on). If Jesus was walking with humans and had flesh/blood, and was able to speak, he was a human. (Notice, I did not capitalize the word "he", however as the one human being called God, that human's name is capitalized from this point forward to validate my point.) Jesus reveals Himself to be the Son of God as He dictates the words that GOD HIMSELF is revealing to Him (Jesus). (Jesus said "I am in Him and He is in Me") In other words, God Himself was speaking to the people using Jesus as the proof and the tool that introduced God to people.... the real God. God who created the universe and all things in it was called "Elohim". Thereafter, once man began to know God (through Adam) He was known as Yehweh, (or Jehovah, a derivitive of Yehweh), the One people would pray to. When He presented Himself to humans in human form, He would be known as "Jesus", because a human could not hold the name of Almighty God. He would have to be called Jesus. To summarize, there was a difference in how He (God) was to be known, just to prove all 3 things: 1) that He created the heavens & earth (Elohim); 2) that He created man and man would come to Him as believers (Yehweh); and 3) that man would even see Him in human form (Jesus).
*When you say "he has his son pay for our sins by dying", Christians (who follow the teachings of Christ) believe actually that those that have their sins "accounted for" are only the ones that God pre-decided/predestined to be "the saved/chosen/Christian ones". All other ones (those who never believe from the time they are born until the time they die)have no desire to have their sins forgiven because they do not believe that there is a God to pray to, nor do they believe their sins are even sins. These would be the ones God uses as 'tools' to test the faith of the "saved ones". There is clear defining that Jesus spoke of when He said this would happen. All of Jesus predictions came true. Then again, those not chosen by God to be Christians, would not believe that statement. Jesus said Satan would distort the reasoning of people and there would be those that didn't believe, and they would be put there to test the believers' faith and try to turn them against God, or, in other words, become an "apostate". If one fails the test of faith and becomes an apostate and turns their back on God for the rest of their lives, and dies that way, they will not "float on the clouds", as you call it, or "see God in heaven", as a Christian calls it. YOU THEN SAID, "...So I am left with the conclusion that God knew I would be who I am prior to making me, and yet made me anyway knowing he was setting me up to be tortured forever. Is the imperfection of mankind our mistake or his?"
Did you notice how your final synopsis was in the sense that God made you? And that He would know who you would be prior to making you? And that He would be 'setting you up' for being tortured forever? Listen to your words. You don't sound like an Athiest at all, more like an Agnostic seeking to know the answers to all these questions, whether you want to broadcast it or not. Listen, if you are questioning whether or not you will go to heaven, a very wise theologian (named Charles Spurgeon) once said that those who question or fear whether they are going to heaven are quite possibly showing evidence that they in fact will go to heaven. Another word of advice for you.... if you are pondering these things without understanding, and you could care a less if God is real or not, then quite possibly, you are not one of the ones that God chose for a "Christian life" on earth, or one who is destined to see heaven. BUT, if you are wondering if God will ever give you understanding (and I assume you could be because you said you just don't understand) then God will give you wisdom to make sense of many/most of these things... and He will make you care if they are true or not. And furthermore, if you have even one ounce of you that desires to ask God SIMPLY to give you understanding of this, then guess what.......... you're being called by God, and that's a fact, not speculation. And the very first step in becoming a believer or a "Christian", is when God calls you to wonder about Him, or ask about Him. Because you don't call upon Him. He calls upon you by leading you there. Then you answer His call by beginning to ask questions in several different ways about many different things, like the existence of God, heaven, life, death, etc. If you wonder if He will ever "happen" in your life, you can rest assured He has already started the process. You have no idea what He has in store for you or your journey in life. It could be 23 years from now that you are finally "born" in Him (meaning, to believe wholeheartedly in Him), one never knows. BUT, if you continue to dismiss that He is real, you will find that you were never one of the chosen ones to begin with. If you hear this and still don't care, and still say He isn't real, then you will be the final proof that He IS real because you will prove to be one that God speaks about that will reject Him. If it means enough to you that you do not think it's fair, and want to prove to yourself that He is real, then prove it to yourself. Give Him an ounce of your time and watch what He does with your life. No Christian can prove that God is real to an athiest;Only God can prove to someone that He is real..........because He is ultimately the One who decides if that person will ever "get it" or not. And in final, if you trust one thing, trust this: If He IS real, and He DOES have you in his "book of life" (this is talked about in the Bible as being the book of His which holds all the names of the ones He chose to believe in Him and make it to heaven; the book was His since the beginning) as one of His chosen ones, then you are guaranteed, at some point in your life, to believe in Him wholeheartedly, whether you want to, plan to, or choose to, or not. You will not be able to deny Him, for He will not allow you to anymore. And that, my friend, no one can disprove. NO ONE.
Last edited by REFORMED; 06-08-2008 at 12:40 PM..
Reason: clarifying a statement
I'm an atheist but don't deny a deity. What I can say for you though is that rationally, you'd have to be looking in the opposite direction at every turn to remain a Christian in the Western World. Not because of the sin of others, but because your beliefs, in an age of information and discovery, are so very clearly ripped from pagan religions which predated yours. It's as if you're selling me a used car I've seen before -- I saw my neighbor down the street pushing it home after it died on the side of the road, I saw it advertised on the television as new when they simply took the VIN off, gave it a new name, and peddled it off to market. Why do I want this car?
Please, do everyone a favor and research how your religion fits in with the religions before yours and before theirs. It isn't new, it isn't original and excuse me for sounding rude, but it doesn't appeal to everyone and it shouldn't! - I can't even explain to you why it's appealing to yourself -- clearly ignorance and a lack of creativity.
Atheist here and the OP didn't do anything for me, I reject personal experience.
I just have to ask then, not trying to "prove" anything at all. BUT...as the line (sorta paraphrased") in Charles Dickens classic novel...what WOULD you accept as "proof" past that of your own senses...?
Quote:
Ps If It turns out im not an atheist then why am I a Christian?
I am an atheist. If I ever decide to believe in supernatural beings I think I would be partial to Zeus and the gang. At the very least I would believe in many gods, not one.
I am an atheist. If I ever decide to believe in supernatural beings I think I would be partial to Zeus and the gang. At the very least I would believe in many gods, not one.
Ok. Fair enough. So what DO you believe in? Zeus and the gang, or what?
Personally, I don't care. But I DO want to understand why those who DON'T believe in the Christian God and teachings put so much energy and effort (and often, intolerance) into why it seems to be so important to make a point that you don't?
Whooptedoo...are we supposed to be intimidated by it?
Yes I'm an atheist, and your preaching won't change the fact.
No, actually, if you read my post clearly, you would see that I agree with your statement. If you are truly an athiest, anything said about God to you will not affect you or make you want to come to know more about God. So I guess we agree then. Thanks!
Atheist here and the OP didn't do anything for me, I reject personal experience.
Ps If It turns out im not an atheist then why am I a Christian?
Ok, I have to ask, sorry. What does this question mean? Are you seriously asking why you would be a Christian if you found out you weren't an athiest? As in, 'what's the point?' or something?
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So my plea to the Athiests is this. Pretend you and I are friends. Best friends. I am asking you, my friend, for a favor. Please don't get angered by my question, but please just do me this honor. I am not a "pat on the back, don't worry... God loves you" type of "messenger". I'm a psychologically sound, down to earth individual who is here as a friend..... so please, re-read the statement above and understand what the poster is saying. Then read my post below. If you never ever read another thing about God on this forum or anywhere else, please read what I wrote below and pay attention to every word.....
Thanks!
Are you seriously asking why you would be a Christian if you found out you weren't an athiest? As in, 'what's the point?' or something?
