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You are conflating things that are not accurate. That the physical is just a perpetual convenience to enable us to function does NOT mean that what is THERE is not actually there. It is there but we would not comprehend it in its actual state which would prevent our ability to function.
Life exists as the foundation for all existence, not just what we perceive as physically living. You do not actually seem to believe in Spirit which is non-physical LIFE! Consciousness is NOT physical it is Spirit and it is life. Our delayed and "derivative experience" of it causes all the confusion and misunderstanding, IMO.
the non physical spirit does not have life and does not have death.
because living and dying are only attributes of the physical. and the spirit is not physical.
primordial non physical awareness is not living and dying. those are attributes of the physical only.
primordial non physical awareness is being.
life dies. everything living dies at some point. everything alive becomes dead at some point.
that is not spirit.
that is what is not making sense for me.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-16-2023 at 02:49 PM..
the nonphysical spirit does not have life and does not have death.
because living and dying are only attributes of the physical. and the spirit is not physical.
primordial nonphysical awareness is not living and dying. those are attributes of the physical only.
primordial nonphysical awareness is being.
life dies. everything living dies at some point. everything alive becomes dead at some point.
that is not spirit.
that is what is not making sense for me.
That is what is wrong with your conception of life. Living is all there is! Even rocks are "living" in the sense that they are not the static substances they appear to be to our sensory interface. Their relatively slow molecular vibratory manifestations are derivative of the fundamental living consciousness of God (Spirit). There is no such thing as death.
Dying is just a change in the temporary appearance of the physical "living" manifestation as it becomes fully Spirit. Your understanding of awareness is misleading you. Awareness is an attribute of consciousness and life, period. Trying to accommodate the rishis' ideation violates the very definition of awareness. Pretending it is something devoid of consciousness is irrational since it is precisely what consciousness is, IMO.
That is what is wrong with your conception of life. Living is all there is! Even rocks are "living" in the sense that they are not the static substances they appear to be to our sensory interface. Their relatively slow molecular vibratory manifestations are derivative of the fundamental living consciousness of God (Spirit). There is no such thing as death.
Dying is just a change in the temporary appearance of the physical "living" manifestation as it becomes fully Spirit. Your understanding of awareness is misleading you. Awareness is an attribute of consciousness and life, period. Trying to accommodate the rishis' ideation violates the very definition of awareness. Pretending it is something devoid of consciousness is irrational since it is precisely what consciousness is, IMO.
Exactly what did the rishis tell you, Mystic? I am very curioser and curioser as you never point to the specific text or specific rishi. Then we can all pore over the text and understand it and each other better. That would be so much fun, group reading of the Vedanta texts.
Living denotes experience, pain and pleasure, desire and disappointment. Sentience. Rocks are ever blissful, they have no ego. Dying denotes change, decay, death. Birth is the beginning of death. The animation stops. Body becomes earth. Mind leaves the body along with the breath and karma, to be embodied again, at a place and time and shape that is right by the order of the universe.
What remains is the awareness, the witness, ever shining, never changing, always in blissful and in fullness. We are that.
That is what is wrong with your conception of life. Living is all there is! Even rocks are "living" in the sense that they are not the static substances they appear to be to our sensory interface. Their relatively slow molecular vibratory manifestations are derivative of the fundamental living consciousness of God (Spirit). There is no such thing as death.
Dying is just a change in the temporary appearance of the physical "living" manifestation as it becomes fully Spirit. Your understanding of awareness is misleading you. Awareness is an attribute of consciousness and life, period. Trying to accommodate the rishis' ideation violates the very definition of awareness. Pretending it is something devoid of consciousness is irrational since it is precisely what consciousness is, IMO.
it sounds like you are equating "living" with God or spirit.
you can't have living without dying. neither apply to God or spirit.
if there is no death and dying, then there is no life and living.
it is impossible to have one without the other. iving and dying are inseparable, they go hand in hand, they are flip sides of the same coin.
god is not "living." God is being.
it seems you equate "not living" with "dead." neither however apply.
i actually agree that there is no death and no dying, for spirit, for God, for our primordial essence .
because it is unborn, uncreated, unformed, unliving, undying.
it is BEING.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-16-2023 at 07:20 PM..
That is what is wrong with your conception of life. Living is all there is! Even rocks are "living" in the sense that they are not the static substances they appear to be to our sensory interface. Their relatively slow molecular vibratory manifestations are derivative of the fundamental living consciousness of God (Spirit). There is no such thing as death.
Dying is just a change in the temporary appearance of the physical "living" manifestation as it becomes fully Spirit. Your understanding of awareness is misleading you. Awareness is an attribute of consciousness and life, period. Trying to accommodate the rishis' ideation violates the very definition of awareness. Pretending it is something devoid of consciousness is irrational since it is precisely what consciousness is, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Exactly what did the rishis tell you, Mystic? I am very curioser and curioser as you never point to the specific text or specific rishi. Then we can all pore over the text and understand it and each other better. That would be so much fun, group reading of the Vedanta texts.
Living denotes experience, pain and pleasure, desire and disappointment. Sentience. Rocks are ever blissful, they have no ego. Dying denotes change, decay, death. Birth is the beginning of death. The animation stops. Body becomes earth. Mind leaves the body along with the breath and karma, to be embodied again, at a place and time and shape that is right by the order of the universe.
What remains is the awareness, the witness, ever shining, never changing, always in blissful and in fullness. We are that.
You are an informed and knowledgeable acolyte of the rishis so there is no need to go to the source. Actually, you did put up a video, a while back that summarized and encapsulates the reasoning and rationale quite adequately and succinctly. In any case, it is clear from this post that you thoroughly buy into that rationale and find the reasoning in this post cogent. I do not.
The bold at the end of your post is particularly incoherent but you seem to find it meaningful. If the bliss of rocks is what you seek from this life, we are definitely not on the same page. I am at a loss to see where we can come to an agreement about the basic consciousness/awareness conundrum that your views project, but we do agree about the underlined part of the bold.
but by your own description, bliss is what you yourself encountered in your pivotal experience.
and since you yourself in the post above also said that rocks are also an expression of god, made of god essence, then it makes sense that the bliss of rocks is also the bliss of humans.
amd since everything is already an outpicturing of god essence, and is made of god essence (you state this in post above), then it does not "become" spirit. it already IS spirit. whether that is in the form of a rock or a human. as you say it is changing shapes and forms. but it already is spirit. it can't "mature into" something it already is. it is just spirit expressing in different forms and shapes.
again i am reading carefully the points you are making in describing elements of the belief system, but i keep bumping up against that which does not follow.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-16-2023 at 08:45 PM..
You are an informed and knowledgeable acolyte of the rishis so there is no need to go to the source. Actually, you did put up a video, a while back that summarized and encapsulates the reasoning and rationale quite adequately and succinctly. In any case, it is clear from this post that you thoroughly buy into that rationale and find the reasoning in this post cogent. I do not.
The bold at the end of your post is particularly incoherent but you seem to find it meaningful. If the bliss of rocks is what you seek from this life, we are definitely not on the same page. I am at a loss to see where we can come to an agreement about the basic consciousness/awareness conundrum that your views project, but we do agree about the underlined part of the bold.
Quote:
. What remains is the awareness, the witness, ever shining, never changing, always in blissful and in fullness. We are that.
I am quoting the bolded that you find incoherent. It is quite possible i failed to string the words together well.
The bliss of the rocks was in a different context not related to the bold, so we will set it aside for now.
When the body is no longer sentient, the organs of perception no longer perceive, that which was the witness and was aware of the perception still remains. But the time to have cast off the ego and to have known the nature of the true self as pure awareness is past. The purpose of birth is to realize, recognize our nature as atma, that we are not the ever changing ego, we are the eternal Brhman. It is a gift, an opportunity. If we die without knowing, it is a lost opportunity. Knowing is becoming.
I am not trying to convince you of what you are not convinced of yet. You know plenty and i respect wherever you are in your own spiritual journey. The wisdom of the rishis have withstood time and is relevant today. it will not change.
but by your own description, bliss is what you yourself encountered in your pivotal experience.
and since you yourself in the post above also said that rocks are also an expression of god, made of god essence, then it makes sense that the bliss of rocks is also the bliss of humans.
amd since everything is already an outpicturing of god essence, and is made of god essence (you state this in post above), then it does not "become" spirit. it already IS spirit. whether that is in the form of a rock or a human. as you say it is changing shapes and forms. but it already is spirit. it can't "mature into" something it already is. it is just spirit expressing in different forms and shapes.
again i am reading carefully the points you are making in describing elements of the belief system, but i keep bumping up against that which does not follow.
You are doing quite well following my reasoning, Tzaph. the missing ingredient is the process of life. Its eternal nature just means it has no beginning or end, not that it is NOT alive and growing. Growth is a characteristic of Life. I keep using our physical body and referents because they are what we know about. The Spiritual body of which we are a part operates on similar principles but is not the same so don't let yourself be confused by that.
So we DO have a physical birth which is the physical beginning and death which is the end of our physical existence. But we do not actually die. Our physical existence just serves as the development milieu for our "cellular" Spiritual essence (Consciousness) which is the "growth component" of God's Eternal Life. When that development is complete we are full cellular components of God's consciousness (or as Jesus would say, we are "born again" spiritually).
You are doing quite well following my reasoning, Tzaph. the missing ingredient is the process of life. Its eternal nature just means it has no beginning or end, not that it is NOT alive and growing. Growth is a characteristic of Life. I keep using our physical body and referents because they are what we know about. The Spiritual body of which we are a part operates on similar principles but is not the same so don't let yourself be confused by that.
So we DO have a physical birth which is the physical beginning and death which is the end of our physical existence. But we do not actually die. Our physical existence just serves as the development milieu for our "cellular" Spiritual essence (Consciousness) which is the "growth component" of God's Eternal Life. When that development is complete we are full cellular components of God's consciousness (or as Jesus would say, we are "born again" spiritually).
since spirit has no beginning and no end, it is already a "full component" of god.
always has been always will be.
no "growth" or "maturing" or "development" needed.
there is no life without death. there is no living without death.
and since spirit has no beginning and no end, and is not born and does not die, it is not subject to "living" and "dying" nor is it subject to "birth" or "born again."
we are already part of god. there is no growing into what we already are.
being does not grow. it just is.
bliss is complete as it is. no "growth" "change" "development" "maturing" needed
to say that which is eternal "grows" is a contradiction.
growth is a characteristic of biology and the physical. but not of spirt. and not of god.
something full whole perfect complete (whether that is bliss or god) just is.
it is not about growing or changing or maturing into anything.
it is simply a matter of recognizing what we already are.
and always have been and always will be.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-16-2023 at 11:02 PM..
Have we yet seen a single example of what “universal truth for all of us” is? 10 of them.
There are no triangles with 4 sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Maybe we need to revisit what truth is. It is that which does not change. Also we must remember Science does not deal with truth. It is purely a philosophical concept. Gravity is not truth, it is a fact.
But only for some people?
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