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Okay, so...there have been a couple of threads now (actually, I think one of the mods might have merged them) talking about the man assisting a baptism who was swept out to sea and is presumed dead.
The overriding theme is that this is an extreme irony, as someone doing something that supposedly God wants, was actually punished.
This brings to mind something that has always puzzled me about religion in general (not just Christianity). In many religions, you'll hear about heaven being this absolutely wonderful place, the best possible outcome. Some religions seem to focus a huge part of life on death. "Today doesn't matter, it's eternity that matters..." "Life is the blink of an eye, but an eternity in paradise is your ultimate reward..." and so on.
Yet, when someone dies, it's often considered some kind of punishment. Why wasn't that person "saved" from death? Etc. Didn't people pray hard enough for the person to escape such a terrible tragedy? And so on.
You'll also hear many stories of people who were "saved" mysteriously from death. These people consider themselves special in God's eyes somehow and that God loves them so much that he wants to protect them from death - death being apparently the worst thing that can happen to a person slated for eternity.
This kind of makes me go
If heaven is real and it's so fantastic, why would death be "a punishment" by God, or even simple negligence and "not looking out for" the person on God's part?
Interesting post and while I have heard of people being "saved" from death or escaping somehow, I've never thought of death as a punishment. I've never heard that people who escaped death described as special or especially loved.
I remember when Katrina hit some religious leaders said it was punishment from God for Mardi Gras or some such nonsense. When 9/11 happened it was supposed to be vengeance against America for all the abortions. I think it's all nonsense. And if it's punishment, why do Christians die if Jesus paid for their sins?
I've been to many Christian funerals and witnessed people wailing. I can understand that because you miss the loved ones. When my mother passed away, I did the eulogy, but gave her a grand send off wrapping it up with saying it wasn't goodbye, but I'll see you later. I did cry, but I didn't grieve and I think there is a difference. My sister, however, is still grieving. Our mother passed away 13 years ago and you still can't mention mom to her. She will break down and go into depression. She is a Christian. I don't get it, but everyone is different and only they can answer why they feel that way.
The Bible itself teaches that death is a punishment for sin. Romans 5 V 12 : "Through one man sin entered the world and thus death spread to all men for they had all sinned." But death pays for the sin and after that its all good!
I agree with you that there is a great contradiction here between the beliefs of Christians about the afterlife and the actions of Christians when someone close dies. If a person is faithful after all, there is the grand prize of eternity in heaven, a place which is everyone's ultimate dream is fulfilled.
Death should be a time of great rejoicing, not sadness and if the person got to go 'early' even better. Like you, I don't understand everyone praying for the person to be kept alive on this crappy planet, when there is such a reward awaiting them in the spirit realm. Yes, they will miss them for a few short years, but isn't it a selfish thing to want them to survive to live down here with all its trials and tribulations rather than wanting them to be with God in eternal bliss?
I have a sneaking suspicion that more than a few Christians don't have the faith in God they proclaim they have.
I have a sneaking suspicion that more than a few Christians don't have the faith in God they proclaim they have.
Agreed, but they are not aware of the disconnect for the most part. One's mortality is often not something that one is honest with oneself about, and when that's the case, you can't be expected to be honest with others about it. People tell themselves they believe, but deep down they don't, or they'd act like it.
The Bible itself teaches that death is a punishment for sin. Romans 5 V 12 : "Through one man sin entered the world and thus death spread to all men for they had all sinned." But death pays for the sin and after that its all good!
I agree with you that there is a great contradiction here between the beliefs of Christians about the afterlife and the actions of Christians when someone close dies. If a person is faithful after all, there is the grand prize of eternity in heaven, a place which is everyone's ultimate dream is fulfilled.
Death should be a time of great rejoicing, not sadness and if the person got to go 'early' even better. Like you, I don't understand everyone praying for the person to be kept alive on this crappy planet, when there is such a reward awaiting them in the spirit realm. Yes, they will miss them for a few short years, but isn't it a selfish thing to want them to survive to live down here with all its trials and tribulations rather than wanting them to be with God in eternal bliss?
I have a sneaking suspicion that more than a few Christians don't have the faith in God they proclaim they have.
Only God knows the true heart of an individual, we as Christians need to have confidence of our afterlife destination.
Only God knows the true heart of an individual, we as Christians need to have confidence of our afterlife destination.
Why is it important to gin up confidence? And why is it necessary to force it? Why wouldn't confidence just BE there if it were warranted?
I remember frequently hearing from the pulpit that people "need" to have more faith, pray more, trust more, be happier. Wouldn't the truth of a teaching be self-evident enough that these things would just organically arise and flow? Why do they always have to be conjured?
Every Christian funeral I've ever gone to the minister is standing at the pulpit preaching that the deceased has gone on to a better place. That being the case, one would think that everyone at the funeral, the deceased included, would be in a hurry to catch up.
This has always been a puzzlement.
If heaven was such a great place then one would think that there would be a huge rush to get there. Now I can understand suicide being against the rules because that is sort of like jumping to the head of the line, but praying for god to put you at the back of the line just doesn't make a whole lot of sense if the object is to get to heaven in the first place.
Note to Muslim extremist - it is one thing to try to jump ahead of the line for a cause, but I fail to see the sense of taking others who don't seem to be in a hurry to follow you to paradise. Not to mention that blowing up only oneself would draw just as much attention as perhaps sympathy than blowing up other folks. Please see Vietnamese monks and that you man in Tunisia whose self-emulation did more to change Tunisian society that all the suicide bombers have done collectively.
The Bible calls death an enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26).
We must await the resurrection from the dead to experience life again.
I think a better understanding of "heaven" would be when one sees it in its plural form as "heavens" or "celestials." It is not a place where people go to play harps and rest on clouds, sitting around for eternity just praising God. Rather, when believers come out of their tombs/graves and meet together with Christians living when the event of Christ meeting them in the air occurs (1 Thess.4:17), they are transported into the heavens/celestial realms and have a job to do:
making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)" to have an administration
of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1:9-10).
As to others escaping death while others die, this is because "all our days are numbered" by God. He knows when our final day is for living. So, say two people in the same hospital have cancer, one dies of it and the other lives on, this is due to God already knowing that the person who survived, that person's days just didn't run out yet.
Even the second death in Revelation should not so much be thought of as a punishment for humans. It is just that God judges them (sets them right as to all the ins and outs of life) and He does not need them on the new earth so they enter death again. Think of that second death as a merciful act. They are unconscious until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:25). Then they will be resurrected out of death, be given immortality and incorruption and all the blessings God has in store for them. All this is because of what Christ accomplished in His death for them.
All Physical things have a beginning and an end. Death is no less a part of life than Birth is. Death is not a Punishment it is nothing more and nothing less than a part of life.
During our time in this physical realm we are determining what our eternal existence will be like. We are preparing for how we will spend eternity. Once we are freed from our physical confines is when will we live. Our choices in this realm will determine how we will spend eternity. No pressure, no obligation we all pick our final destination.
But that's just the point, Woodrow. As you said: Death is nothing more and nothing less than a part of life.
And to sweeten the mix, the religious tend to believe that the afterlife is the most amazing thing anyone can ever experience.
Yet they are the ones who often seem to see death as a punishment. They pray like heck against it, they ask God "why?" when someone dies...and so on. To cement this, death is often a punishment in the Bible, at least the OT. And when Jesus heals an affliction, he says sins are forgiven (as if the affliction were a punishment, that is obviously the intimation). It is presented as if death, and affliction leading up to it, is the worst possible thing. Yet at the same time, the religious idea is that being dead is the best possible thing.
And of course, as I said, there were a ton of smart remarks intimating how ironic it was that a Christian man could be swept out to sea while doing supposedly God's work - again, an intimation that if anything, God should have rewarded the man. And what's the opposite of reward? You got it.
Makes absolutely no sense to me...although some good theories and ideas have been mentioned on this thread. Thank you, everybody.
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