Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yep, here goes the long-winded GCSTroop again with another diatribe.
I've recently had a conversation on the internet with a group of Christians asking me that if there is no God than how do we define our morals? How do we define what is right and wrong? Who sets the standard? I say WE, as humans do. And I'm going to explain why you don't need God to do it but I'd like to use an example in nature that I think most can relate to. DOGS!
Dogs, wolves, coyotes. I think everyone will agree that they are all very closely related. And even if you don't I think you'll agree with me that they are all pack animals.
What's amazing about dogs is that if you watch groups of them there is always an Alpha male. The Alpha male sets the standard for the rest of the group and the rest of the group abides by it. But, the Alpha male is still just a dog. He's just a little stronger, and maybe a little wiser. What's interesting is that by watching dogs or K-9 related species is that they seem to have their OWN moral values. They understand, by the reactions of their peers, what is right and what is wrong. God has had no influence over who becomes the Alpha Male. It's simply whichever male has been chosen by nature to be the Alpha. In other words, the Alpha male ALWAYS eats first. This seems to be something inerrantly true in the world of dogs. If another dog wants to eat first, one of two things will happen:
1) The Alpha Male will successfully defend it's territory and the imposer will either be cast from the pack or will now be deemed the "loser".
2) The Alpha Male will unsuccessfully defend it's territory and the imposer will become the Alpha Male and the former Alpha will now be deemed the "loser".
Either way, it is a set of morals that the dogs live with. They have set their own boundaries. They all KNOW, the Alpha Male sets the boundary.
So, do dogs have morals? Do they know what is right and wrong? I'm not sure, but they know what happens when they misbehave. God didn't give them a set of morals to live by. He didn't give them a biblical code in which to live their lives. Yet, they set standards all by themself. God doesn't pick which one is the Alpha male. It's just nature taking it's course. However, for the necessity of their own survival, dogs have adapted to live this way because that is what makes them thrive.
Well, what about our little domestic poochie woochie? Why are some dogs good and some dogs bad? It's not that some dogs are good and some dogs are bad it's that you have not shown enough dominance over your dog and he views himself as the Alpha Male. Even females will do it. If you do not correct your dog, he thinks he is the boundary setter. Therefore, he will pee on the floor when he feels like it, he will growl when you get close to his food bowl, and he will chew up the carpet. Because he THINKS he can. Yet, they know this based on OUR reactions to it. If you come home and find your mini-blinds chewed up the first thing a lot of people do is go to the dog and slap it for chewing the mini-blinds. Well, the dog doesn't realize what he did was right and wrong! He thinks that by laying down and taking a nap he's being accosted for it! He doesn't realize that you are slapping him for chewing the blinds. Therefore, it is imperative to correct the problem as it happens so the dog knows its boundaries. BASED ON YOUR REACTIONS, the dog felt that taking a nap was wrong and he was getting hit for it. Dogs perceive us based on our reactions. What happens when the dog is chewing the blinds and you give him a treat to take his mind off of it? Well, he thinks he just got rewarded for chewing your blinds!
So, we all set our own boundaries and standards of what is right and wrong. My parents did it without God and I live a perfectly normal life. I don't steal, murder or swindle because I know it's wrong. I don't need the fear of the law to stop me from doing it. I just know that it's wrong. Dogs are able to know what is right and wrong based on human reactions. I don't see why we are so different.
I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. However, it is still God that created and instilled these "morals" into us as well as the nature of the dogs.
What if we were raised to believe that it was ok to kill people? After all, we're only putting them out of their misery. God laid down the laws and people have been living accordingly ever since. What if God would have said it was ok to kill and/or it wouldn't have been made clear in the Bible that murder is wrong? Who's to say that we would automatically just "KNOW" that it's wrong?
As for the dogs, God gave every life form the instinct for survival. This instinct is necessary for every living thing. That's a given. Some people AS WELL as animals have better instincts than others, that is also necessary for survival of the species. However, for some (like the buffalo) the pack is only as strong/fast as the weakest/slowest member.
I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. However, it is still God that created and instilled these "morals" into us as well as the nature of the dogs.
What if we were raised to believe that it was ok to kill people? After all, we're only putting them out of their misery. God laid down the laws and people have been living accordingly ever since. What if God would have said it was ok to kill and/or it wouldn't have been made clear in the Bible that murder is wrong? Who's to say that we would automatically just "KNOW" that it's wrong?
As for the dogs, God gave every life form the instinct for survival. This instinct is necessary for every living thing. That's a given. Some people AS WELL as animals have better instincts than others, that is also necessary for survival of the species. However, for some (like the buffalo) the pack is only as strong/fast as the weakest/slowest member.
To you it is God who gave every life form the instinct for survival. However, the religious have asked me how we, as atheists, derive our own morals. We derive our morals based on the knowledge that we do NOT want to be killed or have family members killed. We do NOT want to be stolen from or have our loved ones stolen from. The religious ask what defines right and wrong? Without a god there is no right and wrong! I say that we are all examples of right and wrong.
Every single one of us on this board has different tolerances of what makes them feel good and bad. I think it's fair to say that most of us don't call each other names or belittle them not because there are moderator's on the board but because we understand that it doesn't do anybody any good. We all don't like to be called things or belittled, so I choose not to do that because I perceive other people's reactions when this is done to them and I know how bad it feels to be called names or belittled.
Not only that, but each of us has our limitation in what we find acceptable and not acceptable. Some people think Hooter's is a place you can take the whole family for dinner, while other's find it completely degrading to women and downright offensive. WE decide what is right and wrong for us and our families. Not God. WE DO. I don't think Hooter's is a family establishment. Not because God says I shouldn't go there, and not because it objectifies women. I don't think it's a family establishment because some people go there to blow off steam, tell dirty jokes, curse, and ogle at the women. There's no telling what a child's ears will hear in a place like that. I MADE that determination, not God, I did. So, we all have our own limitations of moral values, we have made them up from the get go perceived on the reactions of our own feelings and others' feelings. I think murder is a prime example because, to my knowledge, it is not acceptable in any country. NO ONE likes murder. Why? Because we know how morally wrong it is, again, not because God says so but because we know we don't want to be murdered and we don't want our families murdered so we establish laws against it.
So, we all set our own boundaries and standards of what is right and wrong. My parents did it without God and I live a perfectly normal life. I don't steal, murder or swindle because I know it's wrong. I don't need the fear of the law to stop me from doing it. I just know that it's wrong. Dogs are able to know what is right and wrong based on human reactions. I don't see why we are so different.
I believe that you are a decent, moral & normal person, and that your parents did a fine job of raising you without them or you having a concrete belief in God.
However, there are multiple things that you may not realize about how you were raised and what you were taught that did indeed involve God.
Our nation was founded by the founding fathers who had a profound belief in God. They fought a revolution and started our Bill of Rights with the notion that God created all men as being equal. Whether your parents or the schools taught you this principle in the context of religion or not, the only reason why this principle exists in the United States today, is because our founding fathers successfully fought a revolutionary war against the King of England and his empire for our independence and the right to have the principle become reality, as well as for the freedom of religion, and for the right to self-government.
Our founding fathers shaped our entire society from it's inception. The same society which educated your parents and you. So your very understanding of what is right and wrong was shaped and influenced by believers in God and the Bible, as it has been since the very beginning of our nation.
It's westward expansion was influenced by the national belief in manifest destiny, that God pre-ordained our nation to stretch from coast to coast.
The Civil War was fought to give equal human dignity and rights to the slaves, in the name of God and the Union.
Women fought for and were given the right to vote in the 1920's, some would say in continuation of the notion that all men are created equal by God.
When an elected president swears an oath to defend the Constitution that ends with "so help me God", or when a witness in Court swears to tell the truth and nothing but the truth before taking the witness stand, it's understood that this is in deference to the same beliefs that our founding fathers had when they called upon God to help them establish this nation against seemingly insurmountable odds.
The people who established the traditions that this nation is founded upon, and their beliefs, are interlinked with our beliefs today, to such an extent, that God has become somewhat synonomous with our secular upbringing through publicly accredited education.
So as much as you may think that your parents didn't raise you within the context of religion, and without God, I believe that you are mistaken. It's virtually impossible, for you to have any of your beliefs as a red-blooded American, without those beliefs having been influenced by God, and by believers in God.
Deny it as you may, those are the facts as I see them, and history can attest.
We do not exist in a vacuum, in the year 2007 A.D..
I believe that you are a decent, moral & normal person, and that your parents did a fine job of raising you without them or you having a concrete belief in God.
However, there are multiple things that you may not realize about how you were raised and what you were taught that did indeed involve God.
Our nation was founded by the founding fathers who had a profound belief in God. They fought a revolution and started our Bill of Rights with the notion that God created all men as being equal. Whether your parents or the schools taught you this principle in the context of religion or not, the only reason why this principle exists in the United States today, is because our founding fathers successfully fought a revolutionary war against the King of England and his empire for our independence and the right to have the principle become reality, as well as for the freedom of religion, and for the right to self-government.
Our founding fathers shaped our entire society from it's inception. The same society which educated your parents and you. So your very understanding of what is right and wrong was shaped and influenced by believers in God and the Bible, as it has been since the very beginning of our nation.
It's westward expansion was influenced by the national belief in manifest destiny, that God pre-ordained our nation to stretch from coast to coast.
The Civil War was fought to give equal human dignity and rights to the slaves, in the name of God and the Union.
Women fought for and were given the right to vote in the 1920's, some would say in continuation of the notion that all men are created equal by God.
When an elected president swears an oath to defend the Constitution that ends with "so help me God", or when a witness in Court swears to tell the truth and nothing but the truth before taking the witness stand, it's understood that this is in deference to the same beliefs that our founding fathers had when they called upon God to help them establish this nation against seemingly insurmountable odds.
The people who established the traditions that this nation is founded upon, and their beliefs, are interlinked with our beliefs today, to such an extent, that God has become somewhat synonomous with our secular upbringing through publicly accredited education.
So as much as you may think that your parents didn't raise you within the context of religion, and without God, I believe that you are mistaken. It's virtually impossible, for you to have any of your beliefs as a red-blooded American, without those beliefs having been influenced by God, and by believers in God.
Deny it as you may, those are the facts as I see them, and history can attest.
We do not exist in a vacuum, in the year 2007 A.D..
Most Christians don't seem to understand that when the Founding Fathers referred to "God" or "The Creator" they were referring the the universal idea of a supreme being, and not the God of The Bible. Remember, the Founding Fathers were primarily Deists and Universalists, not Christians and most had a disdain for the Church. This is quite easy to see from their personal memoirs and from the wording of legislature that clearly state the United States was not founded on Christianity.
Sun, that was a very eloquent post and I fully understand the concept of what you are trying to say, but you also imply that because we are America founded on God that we are the only ones with morals. Now, I've been to 19 countries in my 25 years, and I've found that people have moral values in every society. Even the ones not founded on a God based principle. I refer to Japan a lot because I was stationed there for several years and I have a very good understanding of their principles. Although, by and large, it is considered a Buddhist country, roughly 40% of the country is atheist. Now, the funny thing about Japan is that they don't have the same problems that we do. They don't have issues with gun control, although there are drugs there is not widespread usage of them. The people there are friendly, receive good educations, and quite frankly when compared side by side to the U.S. seem to be so much more genuine. What dictated their morals? Although it was a country strife with a militant dictatorship in the late 1800's and early 1900's the basic moral principles of their society have never changed.
So, I ask again, with 40% of the population atheist, why are they such good people? Why isn't there rampant drug usage, murders, and crime? Keep in mind, their largest city, Tokyo, has a land mass the size of NYC but with almost three times the people. So what keeps these people from acting out against one another? It isn't God or the principles of God. It's the understanding of each other's feelings and the desire not to bestow bad things upon other people. They created their own moral code from their lifestyle; it wasn't God given.
And, if you think that the reasoning is because Japanese prisons are much worse than America's than you are confusing your asiatic cultures.
But, this is really not true. In fact, although their sentences are a bit stricter, the prisons aren't that bad. So, I ask again, what principles of life are they governed by to make them good people? Why are they so kind, friendly, and welcoming to others without God? I can tell you that the parental factor seems to be much better than it is here. Not that Americans are bad parents, but we don't teach our children right and wrong anymore and it's not because everyone in America is turning into a bunch of atheists. Nor is it the lack of prayer in schools. Why do people have to turn to God to be good people? It makes no sense to me. Yes, I am a result of my American heritage. I can't help that. Those were the cards I was dealt and I'm proud of the hand I have. But, does that mean I have to attribute my behavior to God? No, absolutely not.
It doesn't take a God to make good people or bad people. It simply takes good parenting skills. If you don't believe me look at this statistic. 42% of inmates in the U.S. came from single parent households. Another 12% came from foster homes. And here's the kicker: 59% of inmates were exposed to drug and alcohol abuse by their parents when they were kids. Now, I think we can all agree that the U.S. has one of the worst crime rates in the world. Why? Personally, I feel it is because 85% of us still attribute everything to God. I've never met a believer in God that felt they weren't going to heaven, yet I've met HUNDREDS of believers who thought others were going to hell. Now, if you were to look at life a little differently, perhaps with the viewpoint that there is one life and one life only. No afterlife, no heaven, no hell, wouldn't you try to live your one and only life to the best of your abilities? That's what I'm getting at here. I don't need God to decipher what is wrong and right for me. Once again, I can perceive through people's reactions whether or not I did something wrong.
Our nation was founded by the founding fathers who had a profound belief in God. They fought a revolution and started our Bill of Rights with the notion that God created all men as being equal.
I disagree with the assumption that "God" created all men as being equal. First of all, the wording is:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"
The wording is NOT "that all men were created equal by God".
All men (humans) are indeed "created equal" in that the biological process that creates us is the same, and that when we each come from our mother's womb we are all -- leaving aside differences in race and skin color and vagaries of DNA that affect an individual's health -- the same. We all begin our lives in same way (sperm meets egg) and emerge as helpless innocent human beings.
I believe the above is what the Founding Fathers meant. If they had meant "created by God" then why not say exactly that? But they did NOT say that. The words are simply "created equal".
Now what I do disagree with is the next part of the sentence which is ",that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights". I don't deny the existence of those rights, but I disagree with the idea that they originated with a god of any sort. IMO they originated in the brain of mankind over the slow tortuous course of human history.
To you it is God who gave every life form the instinct for survival. However, the religious have asked me how we, as atheists, derive our own morals. We derive our morals based on the knowledge that we do NOT want to be killed or have family members killed. We do NOT want to be stolen from or have our loved ones stolen from. The religious ask what defines right and wrong? Without a god there is no right and wrong! I say that we are all examples of right and wrong.
Every single one of us on this board has different tolerances of what makes them feel good and bad. I think it's fair to say that most of us don't call each other names or belittle them not because there are moderator's on the board but because we understand that it doesn't do anybody any good. We all don't like to be called things or belittled, so I choose not to do that because I perceive other people's reactions when this is done to them and I know how bad it feels to be called names or belittled.
Not only that, but each of us has our limitation in what we find acceptable and not acceptable. Some people think Hooter's is a place you can take the whole family for dinner, while other's find it completely degrading to women and downright offensive. WE decide what is right and wrong for us and our families. Not God. WE DO. I don't think Hooter's is a family establishment. Not because God says I shouldn't go there, and not because it objectifies women. I don't think it's a family establishment because some people go there to blow off steam, tell dirty jokes, curse, and ogle at the women. There's no telling what a child's ears will hear in a place like that. I MADE that determination, not God, I did. So, we all have our own limitations of moral values, we have made them up from the get go perceived on the reactions of our own feelings and others' feelings. I think murder is a prime example because, to my knowledge, it is not acceptable in any country. NO ONE likes murder. Why? Because we know how morally wrong it is, again, not because God says so but because we know we don't want to be murdered and we don't want our families murdered so we establish laws against it.
Honestly GCS, it's called "conditioning". You know science, therefore I'm assuming you are also pretty proficient in Psychology as well. Our morals started out in the beginning of creation. It has been conditioned into each and every one of us regardless whether we believe in God or not.
No matter how God created us, after years and years of the same moral standards, it's going to be conditioned and instilled into each and every culture. Look at the Islamic extremists that are teaching their kids to kill. They are also being conditioned, however this conditioning is harmful and may or may not be considered more of brainwashing than conditioning, but none the less, it is another culture that is being taught differently than our culture has taught us.
Basically what I am saying is this...I believe God initially conditioned our "morals" into us. HOWEVER, newer generations and different cultures are changing some of those morals. It's simply conditioning!
The purpose of my original post was to show that whether people realize it or not, they are influenced by Judeo-Christian principles by virtue of living in a country founded by believers.
For instance, the reason we have bail for people accused of crimes, even for those accused of murder, is because the founding fathers believed in a living God strongly enough to believe that society had nothing to fear if a murderer was allowed to go back and live in society until their trial. God would protect society even from a guilty murderer, through His living instruments.
Their belief in a living God was profound.
Since they set principles in motion that conformed to their strong believe in a living God, and because even George Washington strongly believed that God had an active role in American revolutionary war victories and it's final outcome, they believed that men were instruments of God. And all they were doing was following their instincts much like the wolfs in the OP.
So, when these men, or self-proclaimed "revolutionary" instruments of God, set into motion their principles and handed them down through our secular traditions, they were in effect not only handing down certain morals and values, but making those morals and values more secular and non-religious. So anybody who believes in them, are believing in religious values that have been made to be now poorly disguised as being secular.
So when atheists proclaim that they were raised without the help of God, that's just not true. This culture was influenced by believers who formed the society according to their values. Everyone should realize that these principles were religious ones, but many people don't want to admit it. Which really doesn't matter to me. It's very self evident by the Pledge of Allegience (One nation under God) & printed on money (In God We Trust), the influence that God has on our society and the public teachings of our children have been widely accepted as being secular & neutral (So maybe atheists rebel against this).
We don't lie as witnesses in courtrooms because of the 10 Commandments and because of the laws punishing purjury. So it's not necessary to believe in God or the 10 Commandments which are religious, as long as everyone believes in the laws prohibiting purjury and it's punishment which are now secular & neutral rules. So by virtue of the Bible made real by at least some of our laws, religious belief is imparted on every American whether they like it or not.
Our income taxes are like tithing, and the money is used to help the poor, elderly and disabled in the same way that the Church used to collect alms for the poor, and as encouraged by the Bible. So by paying taxes, people are Biblically doing good Christian works, without even having to believe in God.
In effect, even atheists have been "duped" or "brainwashed", for lack of a better word, of voluntarily complying with these religious works that the modern welfare state of Governments performs without even realizing it.
Atheists prove that to me by insisting that they do not believe, need or owe anything to religion while they still comply with the functioning of our Judeo-Christian based government. It's not necessary to believe, it's only necessary to comply, which we all do to the best of our ability. The government is part of God's kingdom. It replaced the old form of God's Government which was the monarchy which was much less humanitarian, yet believed to be divine by most.
The Japanese believed that their Emperor was a direct descendent of God for countless generations. Hence, the rising sun emblem of their flag. Do you really think that the Japanese have ever forgotten that? He was in power up through WW2.
As I said, as far as I'm concerned, it's not vitally important whether people are atheists, or Buddhists, or anything else, as long as the Government of a country is a moral and principled one, doing the good works of what believers refer to as the creator's.
God existed before Christianity, and established some parallel pillars of morality upon which Jesus greatly expanded on before rising above them, both literally and figuratively. He never demanded that anyone believe in Him, He mainly stated to live a moral life until they could come to know Him. So, God's governments have great powers, but as being human, they are not without their faults. But they do fulfill the duties that His Churches don't have the power to fulfill anymore ever since the rise of nationalism, so they coexist and share some functions, and they do have some conflicts over laws and morality.
Nationalism and religion are like people's hearts and minds, they compete for people's greater affections.
The Japanese know that too, especially after WWII, when 2 atomic bombs were dropped there in retribution for being so immoral with regard to their highly war like nature around the world.
Yes, God gave the United States great historical power, and with it came the responsibility, to save or to destroy the world or parts of it.
And over time, with the learned faith of their religions, many Americans have come to learn to also have a profound belief in a living God.
And if a government were to ever become completely immoral, it will be destroyed, and in time a better one will be established. And that's why it's up to all Americans, believers and non-believers to save this nation from itself, and to keep its principles pure. And to help guide it through voter participation, as well as through education, both religious and secular. Everyone plays an important and equal role here.
As they do in Japan and every country whether they vote or not.
Does it matter where the morals in Japan come from?
Not really.
Maybe some of Japan's leaders have been studying the Bible ever since the U.S. governed them after WW2.
But what hasn't been mentioned but is implicit about moral behavior is the concept of good and evil, and who judges what is good and what is evil.
Is it man or is it God?
Atheists say that it's man.
And democracy operates on the basis that man is essentially good, and that good men will vote with good intentions.
Does a living God help to guide men in determining what is good and what is evil, and what is right and what is wrong?
Why do people voluntarily obey most of the laws?
The Bible & Jesus recommended that people obey the moral laws and tith their taxes.
Most atheists seem to agree.
So the religious Bible and the belief of many atheists and believers all seem to have some common moral values whether it's "just a coincidence" or not.
I understand that a lot of our morals and principles come from a Judeo-Christian background. There's no avoiding that. It's not like I can say otherwise. What I was getting at in my last post is that Japan, a country not based on God, has the same moral convictions as us if not better. Now, in my OP I mentioned that it was a group of Christians that asked ME, an atheist, how I got my morals. Christians believe God gave them the fundamental rule making. I believe, and this is what I was trying to prove, that it is possible for man to make up his own morals just like dogs do out in the wild or the way families do when they decide to take their kids to Hooters or not. Yes, principles of the Judeo-Christian philosophy largely affect my way of life. In fact, I don't know it, but I've probably use some form of Biblical word when I am speaking, I put up Christmas lights around Christmas time, not because I am celebrating the birth of Jesus. I just do it because I like the way it looks.
But, there's a line between tradition and celebration. Christians have A LOT of traditions that are a result of Pagan worship yet you won't hear many of them admit it. So what? It doesn't mean anything. And Kawgpz was right about conditioning. It IS conditioning but it doesn't mean that I can't make my own moral choice or standard.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
