Did Jesus Exist? (myths, churches, evolution, believers)
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Yet you continue to argue that he was "insignificant", "a preacher".
Why do you think your beliefs should command automatic respect. I would think that someone who refers to those who don't share their particular beliefs as "swine" should be a little more reticent about demanding 'respect'.
You really like to twist other people's words and make them say what you want. Do you really think that when I say, "historically insignificant" that it means that Jesus of Nazareth was actually insignificant??
As for the swine reference, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Verbally speaking, that's exactly what you intend to do with anything a believer says about ... well, pretty much anything about God, gods, etc. You have no more appreciation for spiritual things than a pig has for precious gems and in that sense the analogy fits like a glove. You see, it's called a metaphor. And like all metaphors, you really shouldn't read into it too far or you'll miss the point entirely. But I'm betting you knew the passage and are only feigning insult to play games here. But hey, if I'm wrong, then just to clarify, I don't think your a pig. Irritating at times? Hopelessly preachy and condescending? Yeah all of those. But no you're not a pig.
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What you need to do is decide which Jesus you are going for. On one hand you claim the he was insignificant, on the other, that he was the son of a god. Which one are you trying to convince me lived. We have two characters here.
1. An insignificant Rabbi preacher called Yeshua ben Yoseph.
2. 'Jesus The Christ', son of a god as described in the NT.
Which one are you choosing?
In context of this thread, I don't have to make any such choice. The underlying question you posed: "Did Jesus Exist?"
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Originally Posted by Rafius
OK! So Yeshua ben Yosef may have been a real person ... a travelling Rabbi preacher.
You've already provided your answer to the original question. You said "yes he may have been a real person." Well, that's your answer to the original question. Whether you think he was a traveling circus performer, a really good magician or whatever else is not relevant. You're asking if he existed, not what he was.
For my part, I think that it is ridiculously unlikely that Jesus was an entirely ficticious person. I've already explained my position.
(Yes Yeshua ben Yosef would be closer to accurate but it's also not as immediately recognizable name. Say "Jesus" and everyone knows who we're talking about even if the name did get garbled in translation. It's also more accurate call God Eloheim or Jehovah/Yaweh, but this too is less recognizable by people in general. And if we're being slavishly accurate we'd write it all in ancient Hebrew. I don't think it's all that important to nitpick over personally.)
If you intended to discuss whether Jesus was the Son of God, died for the sins of mankind, etc. then go ahead and create a new thread for that purpose. Just don't expect me to participate in that discussion. Like I already said, it's absolutely pointless to try to convince you of these things. If somebody else wants to waste their time on it, they're welcome to.
You really like to twist other people's words and make them say what you want. Do you really think that when I say, "historically insignificant" that it means that Jesus of Nazareth was actually insignificant??
You mean you didn't say this in post 48:
"Let's be honest, Jesus of Nazarethwould not have been viewed as a person of great significance at the time."
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As for the swine reference, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Verbally speaking, that's exactly what you intend to do with anything a believer says about ... well, pretty much anything about God, gods, etc.
Hey! Don't blame me if your beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny.
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I don't think your a pig. Irritating at times? Hopelessly preachy and condescending? Yeah all of those.
You're just too kind!
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In context of this thread, I don't have to make any such choice. The underlying question you posed: "Did Jesus Exist?"
Not me. I didn't start the thread. Yet I have shown (without refutation from you I might add) that if he did, he certainly wasn't the person described in the Bible....and that's who you are claiming he was.
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You've already provided your answer to the original question. You said "yes he may have been a real person." Well, that's your answer to the original question. Whether you think he was a traveling circus performer, a really good magician or whatever else is not relevant. You're asking if he existed, not what he was.
...but which 'Jesus' is the OP asking about? That's the important point.
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For my part, I think that it is ridiculously unlikely that Jesus was an entirely ficticious person. I've already explained my position.
But YOU are claiming that he was the divine son of a god. YOU are not saying that he was an ordinary Joe. THAT is what I'm disputing.
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If you intended to discuss whether Jesus was the Son of God, died for the sins of mankind, etc. then go ahead and create a new thread for that purpose. Just don't expect me to participate in that discussion. Like I already said, it's absolutely pointless to try to convince you of these things. If somebody else wants to waste their time on it, they're welcome to.
I'll take that to mean that you can't refute what I said. Thanks for playing anyway.
From what I've seen, burning witches was more of a carry-over of Viking/Germanic religion. Wasn't really a Christian thing but was one of countless things that were either intentionally or inadvertently adopted into Christian custom.
If you want my take on it, at that point Christendom had lost it's way for the most part. I'm more of a Restorationism type of guy. I don't think anyone was "obeying the will of the Christian god" when they burned witches, Jews, etc.
"Let's be honest, Jesus of Nazarethwould not have been viewed as a person of great significance at the time."
Does this say "I do not think he was important"? Nope. It says that he would not have been viewed as important at that time. So whose viewpoint was I talking about? The people who were alive when he was -- which unfortunately does not include me.
Consider for a moment: The United States of America is -- at this point in time -- the greatest nation on earth. But we started out as irrelevant. The British were making more money from a single spice island than from the entire 13 colonies. We were a financial sink-hole. We cost them a lot of money but we weren't making them any in return. Now we like to think that the world stood up and took notice when we freed ourselves from Great Britain but they really didn't think much of it. Just a bunch of country bumpkins off in the almost useless portion of the New World. France saw helping us as a good way to get back at the Brits, they didn't care so much about our cause for freedom.
But just because we started out without many people noticing us did not stop us from becoming something monolithically great.
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But YOU are claiming that he was the divine son of a god. YOU are not saying that he was an ordinary Joe. THAT is what I'm disputing.
I'll take that to mean that you can't refute what I said. Thanks for playing anyway.
Watch this: YouTube - waterboy medulla oblongata
Now ask yourself if you feel that you can talk Bobby out of believing what "Mama said"? The professor provided correct answers and information, didn't he? And yet Bobby was hearing none of it. He just got madder and madder and ended up attacking the professor. He was not willing to entertain the possibility that his notions of the world and the universe could ever be wrong.
That is what I'm seeing here: You do not have an open mind and you're not willing to entertain different ideas. You've entirely shut down the part of you that learns things spiritually, so how can you hope to learn anything of a spiritual nature? There is no point in debating with somebody who already has their mind made up because even if you are 100% right they'll never believe you in a million years. Sometimes it's just a waste of energy trying to teach certain things -- even ones that are this important -- to certain people.
If God appeared in front of you right now and told you who he was and what he was all about, you wouldn't believe it. You would start asking yourself what odd food or chemical combination caused you to hallucinate so spectacularly.
Well ..yes it does! If someone is insignificant then he is unimportant. I think your struggling here dude!
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Nope. It says that he would not have been viewed as important at that time. So whose viewpoint was I talking about? The people who were alive when he was -- which unfortunately does not include me.
Please address the question of how your Jesus was able to do all the things claimed of him AND still be considered unimportant in a culture that believed in the supernatural and miracles. Please address what you ignored ie..this from my previous post...
"So let me get this straight. We are talking about a time when people believed in superstition, gods and miracles. Along comes a dude that performs miracles the like of which the world had never seen before or since. He draws crowds so vast that people are trampled in their haste to hear him speak. He raises people from the dead, he cures the sick, he makes blind people see again, he feeds thousands of people with a few fish and a small amount of bread and still has basketfulls of food left over when the thousands have been fed, he enters Jerusalem and the whole city turn out to welcome him, he causes so much trouble and who-ha that the Romans put him on public trial, thousands of citizens throng the streets to demand his execution, the Romans comply and publicly execute him then, as a coup de grace, he comes back to life after three days. Yet, you believe that the chap that did all this "would not have been viewed as a person of great significance at the time."
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But just because we started out without many people noticing us did not stop us from becoming something monolithically great.
If America had been performing miracles the like of which the world had never seen, do you think America would have been a place that people considered 'unimportant' or 'insignificant'? THAT is the whole crux of the argument here. If your Jesus really had done all the thing that the NT claims he did then he would not, could not have remained an insignificant nobody. As your Bible said (and you conveniently ignored when I pointed it out to you) 'his fame spread far and wide'. If he did all those thing then the historians and writers of the day would have recorded it. They didn't. What does that mean to those of us not blinded by religious dogma? It means that Jesus was either an significant itinerant rabbi or he didn't exist.
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That is what I'm seeing here: You do not have an open mind and you're not willing to entertain different ideas.
Au contraire. My mind is well and truly open. Had it not been I wouldn't have spent over 40 years learning about world religions and why people subscribe to them. You just want to claim that my mind is closed because it's a sidestep to answering all the questions I have asked you and that you have ignored. I'm willing to "entertain" anything you put forward. All I'm asking is that you back it up with verifiable evidence. You can't do that - and that has been clearly shown. You can't do it because the evidence for what you are putting forward does not exist.
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You've entirely shut down the part of you that learns things spiritually, so how can you hope to learn anything of a spiritual nature?
I have no need for 'spiritual' things. They have been observed, tested, researched and shown to be false. Why would I have need for something shown to be false?
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There is no point in debating with somebody who already has their mind made up because even if you are 100% right they'll never believe you in a million years. Sometimes it's just a waste of energy trying to teach certain things -- even ones that are this important -- to certain people.
Yep, same old stuff. Nothing new here. 'I can't dispute what you say therefore, I'm going to claim that you are close-minded which will allow me to do a runner and avoid all further awkward questions.' Fair enough!!
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If God appeared in front of you right now and told you who he was and what he was all about, you wouldn't believe it. You would start asking yourself what odd food or chemical combination caused you to hallucinate so spectacularly.
Of course I would ask all those things. That's what enquiring, rational thinking minds do. If however, having asked all those thing, the evidence said that this really was your god, then I would accept it and believe. You on the other hand would drop to your knees and accept it all...and you call me 'close-minded'!!
The accounts are true. Do not blame God for man's errors.
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