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Mercury, I thought that you didn`t believe in any religion and that they are make believe. If this is true, then why even bother asking a question about "religion." You said that you don`t believe in God.
We care about religion because we are forced to care about religion. If religious people stopped forcing their ridiculous ideas on society, then atheists would stop criticizing those ideas. We would simply think to ourselves that you guys were crazy and not bother refuting your craziness.
Just a side issue, but much of the medievil lore on witchcraft came from various grimoires (the Key of Solomon, etc.) Given that the only people that could write latin in those ages were members of the Clergy, it was largely the Clergy that copied and passed these grimoires around, and probably wrote them in the first place.
Christianity did more for witchcraft than any shamanistic superstition.
No such thing as a Christian who practices witch craft. It clearly goes against God and scripture.
It depends how you define witchcraft and how you translate the appearance of the word in the English text from the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, whichever the case may be.
In one section, thou shall not suffer a witch to live, is actually another word for poisoner.
But that was not a commandment for Christians at all. It was part of the original Jewish law which some still follow. If a Christian is going to go by that then they should also not wear leather shoes with rubber bottoms for example which is also against the same set of Jewish laws.
Mixing herbs to heal others is also a form of witchcraft. Do not think the Bible mentions that anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank316
Christianity did more for witchcraft than any shamanistic superstition.
Well it depends what type of magic. Ceremonial magic, yes. There are other types of magic, such as low magic, which is more based on shamanistic superstition or systems resembling.
Well it depends what type of magic. Ceremonial magic, yes. There are other types of magic, such as low magic, which is more based on shamanistic superstition or systems resembling.
Indeed, ceremonial magic was what I was referring to, however there is some documentary evidence (albeit scarse because of the time period, lol) that the early grimoires, if you look at the ritual in the Key of Soloman, that there are some very clear overlaps between the rites there and 'low' magic of the day. The plants collected for the rituals, the blood sacrafices made in certain cases of animals, and the types of animals etc. Of course any study of this is post Agrippa and so one can't underestimate the influence of new thoughts on old history when its looked at through that lens, but the point is, there is a line of thinking that certain clergy members used these grimoires to deal with the less than biblical superstitions that they were dealing with. Picture the scenario where you're a clergyman in a remote country village in Europe in the middle ages. You talk God and prayer, they buy it, but for results they want spirit work. The knowledge of these arcane practices would widen the appeal of what you were preaching and thus the grimoires extensive spread could have had something to do with attempting to reach that audience through more familiar terms to them (plant work traditions, sacracfice etc) while still being vaguely couched in the Biblical context (Solomon and working with earthly 'demons' etc.)
Well ceremonial magic is about getting closer to the divine, so that makes sense, it is called high magic, though the term is not a perfect equivalent, because it was practiced in the high places, in the temple. Attempting to control demons through sigils was also part of this.
On the other hand low magic was practiced in the valley among commoners. It is magic for the people for regular mundane day-to-day concerns.
Just considering the witch itself, perceived or not, in Northern Europe the witch was treated harshly because it was a harsh land. The environment of harsh winters was against them, one bad crop and the village starves, there was war, constantly, and in such conditions when a nation is at war they usually also turn in on themselves, they attack the weakest member of their own society.
In Southern Europe where the environment did not see many harsh winters, where life was typically more urban than rural, the witch was not usually attacked. Instead she was sought after for consultation, to cast a love spell, to case a hex on a rival, and very well connected persons used these services.
Well ceremonial magic is about getting closer to the divine, so that makes sense, it is called high magic, though the term is not a perfect equivalent, because it was practiced in the high places, in the temple. Attempting to control demons through sigils was also part of this.
On the other hand low magic was practiced in the valley among commoners. It is magic for the people for regular mundane day-to-day concerns.
Just considering the witch itself, perceived or not, in Northern Europe the witch was treated harshly because it was a harsh land. The environment of harsh winters was against them, one bad crop and the village starves, there was war, constantly, and in such conditions when a nation is at war they usually also turn in on themselves, they attack the weakest member of their own society.
In Southern Europe where the environment did not see many harsh winters, where life was typically more urban than rural, the witch was not usually attacked. Instead she was sought after for consultation, to cast a love spell, to case a hex on a rival, and very well connected persons used these services.
Of course officially everyone was Catholic.
I'm aware of the definition of 'high magic' however, much of the ceremonial magic in the classical grimoires (ignoring the Book of Abramelin the Mage because it arose later and was aimed at a different audience) such as the Key, and the lessor Key are directly pertaining to earthly and low magic conerns. In fact almost the entirity of Book I of the Key of Solomon is 'low' magic. It is regarding finding lost items, making people love you, gaining entry to other people's homes etc. It only really deals with 'High' magic in Book II. The lessor Key of solomon follows the same formula, just with a much lower emphasis placed on actual movement towards the divine.
Indeed, all ceremonial higher magic has been pinged by the idea of the Merkovah, etc, but remember that a lot of the Cabalistic mystisicm and the ascension of the tree of life arose after and outside of the sphere of the grimoires of medevil times.
To me, if I were a clergyman, I'd very much want my followers to think that through my biblical power over demons through the powers of Solomon I could compete with their earthly low magic. Indeed to gain converts and to convince them of the power of 'Christian' ritual. (Which is pretty much all Book 1 deals with, controlling demons, making them do what you want and performing magical workings of profoundly low magic with their help. Whether I went on an practiced the contents of "Book II" of the Key (obviously regarding purification and ascension) would be my own business.
So this ceremonial magic was used by some clergy perhaps as a tool to increase the Church for personal or organizational gain and power and not necessarily because they actually believed what they were teaching the laymen? Of course they believed in the divine to be practicing ceremonial magic but that does not mean it was the same sort of divinity they offered the masses?
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