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One wonders then;is it ever possible to enter into a decent, valid, intellectually honest argument with a dedicated fundamentalist Christian or Muslim here on C-D where their identity is protected?
The questions is rather whether or not it's possible to show truth to raving evolutionists. The evidence against science is just way too high to ignore.
You are posing as a fundamentalist for satire, right?
One wonders then;is it ever possible to enter into a decent, valid, intellectually honest argument with a dedicated fundamentalist Christian or Muslim here on C-D where their identity is protected?
The questions is rather whether or not it's possible to show truth to raving evolutionists. The evidence against science is just way too high to ignore.
If this is what you truly believe my advise to you is to use the search function of CD for rifleman's many posts on many subjects, read them carefully, and then run away as fast as you can.
"Evidence" means only one thing, but is variously interpreted. if we require it to be unambiguous and incontrovertible, however, it can get dicey on threads like this.
It was probably two years ago that I presented some situational "evidence" about sedimentary "varve" deposition. It was based on work I did [as a professional career geological consultant, BTW, not as a "hopeful but bumbling amateur...] in the field. Work that was commissioned by our employer in order to understand the nature of a drainage's hydrology prior to men going in and working in the area. The work was intended to save lives by developing an accurate understanding of anticipated annual precipitation and "freshet" flow rates based on past drainage history. "Evidence" if you will.....
In a very short nutshell-explanation, we were able to do so by cutting lake bottom core samples and analyzing the accumulated sediment layers in them (out in the mud layers in front of the steam outflows from the drainage are in question) for about 50 years past, where we also had side-by-side GeoSurvey of Canada documentation of what actually happened in the drainage (flow rates, levels, sediment types and timing...), then going back to hydrological documentation for, if I remember, about 100 years. so then we were able to accurately interpolate for another 200+ years backwards. We were not out to debunk Evolution or God!
O. M. G!!!
You'd think I'd spit or urinated on the Holy Frickin' Grail! So, I politely asked where we had made fundamental mistakes and how, but got nothing but shrill denigration of the whole idea of varves, and, magically, absolute statements that the older ones, let's say those in Lake Baikal in Russia that clearly show ages of the Earth exceeding millions of years, were NOT laid down annually. Nope! Not even last year's, not even the ones that weren't there last fall, but were there after the last spring runoff!
Well, the problem is that these are demonstrably and provably "annual" by the evidence squarely in your face. That's if you agree that flower blooms, pollen, differing sediment qualities and fineness are all clearly "annual", and when you compare the structure of last year's varves, and the last 10 - 50 years, and the past 200, and the past 25,000, they are all identical, and then you go to a year where you don't have complementary historical hydrological documents (from the USGS or USFS or Canadian Geological Survey, etc.) they still look IDENTICAL in structure, materials, layering, organic materials, etc.
So, you have thatsort and quality of evidence, but since varves cut to the bone on the assertion that the earth is only 6037 years because we have countable layers of them into the millions, well then THEY MUST BE DENIED, right? And then, concomitant with that denial, our presentation of that stuff is called a "rant" or a "rave".
Suddenly, all varves were all laid down all at once 6037 year ago (!!!), even when you note that we found some core samples from 10 years ago. Fully established. Nope. All of them were laid down during the Great Noah's Flood!
Musta Been! Obviously. Because God is good. God is great. "Evidence" is only what the IDTrs chose to accept. Because it fits their anti-Evolution, anti-Creation, anti-reality rant...
You have someone, to your face, saying that's not the moon up in the sky, but rather it's a kite flown by Jesus, or they deny varves from last year, or other such provably inane, stupid stuff. But since this is an anonymous posting environment, they can make such silly statements and get away with it unquestioned and unscathed. Whereas in an adjudicated debate, they'd be summarily dismissed, and their emotion-based "evidence" seen for what it truly is. Not "evidence" at all.
You know: like a nutball who says that the evidence for, say, Evolution is being presented by "raving" types.
There you go: my point well made by a raver! Thanks, Avasa.
Alternately, can you imagine actually going head to head, "mano-a-mano" with one of these Moderator cut: edited to "members" in a properly adjudicated open forum? That would be truly be fun.
Wasn't that what happened during the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial? As I remember, the judge wasn't particularly impressed with the best that the creationist/ID side had to offer.
What evidence? Man making things out of things that have already been created? If all has come about because of a big bang, I wonder why man can't find the ingredients that made the big bang. I also wonder why man can't come up with their own creations. If it didn't take an intelligent being, it should be easy.
It's completely obvious by the above post that you know absolutely NOTHING about science, what has been discovered, how it is being used, etc...science, at least, looks for the answers (will continue looking for the answers until they find them) whereas religion will always say goddunit no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary. A little education goes a long way if one wants to respond competently to a post. One day Grasshopper....science will have the answers and then where will religious belief be in that grand scheme of things?
{re: Avasa's commentary...} It's completely obvious by the above post that you know absolutely NOTHING about science, what has been discovered, how it is being used, etc...science, at least, looks for the answers (will continue looking for the answers until they find them) whereas religion will always say goddunit no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary. A little education goes a long way if one wants to respond competently to a post. One day Grasshopper....science will have the answers and then where will religious belief be in that grand scheme of things?
Unfortunately, ChristyGrl, the predictable response will be, well.. predictable. They'll just continue to refute and deny, or to go to an ad hominem insult, as their denialism knows no bounds.
This is, of course, the focus of this very thread, how theistic defenders will not answer questions or deal with the mounds of evidence now available to anyone with fingers and a mind.
Mayhaps we should just abandon them to their ancient tribal thinking and press on, like the rest of the civilized, educated world, to a higher plane of thought and understanding?
Ever notice how the only "religion" that tries to advance itself towards continued enlightenment and knowledge is Buddhism, and perhaps some forms of East Indian philosophies? They also do not deny science, as Christianity and Islam so ardently do. (It's because truth is anathema to devoted mythical God-heads).
NOTE: So far, no Christians here have offered to have an honest debate. I suspect they never will either.
Someone (me I think, actually...) once said "Dust is there to be left in!"
The Truth is in the Details and Publications. Try reading them!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avasa
What evidence? Man making things out of things that have already been created? If all has come about because of a big bang, I wonder why man can't find the ingredients that made the big bang. I also wonder why man can't come up with their own creations. If it didn't take an intelligent being, it should be easy.
Not keeping up on your science reading, are you then? That's OK: it's a full-time job and if you just rely on, say, Ken Hamm or other criminal prevaricators, you'd tend to have a limited info base. Try not to avert your gaze and reach for your cross when you see Scientific American or National Geo or Astronomy magazines on your local news stand! Be not afraid, Avasa!
A suggestion for your enlightenment: Try Googling Craig Venter's completion of life in a test tube out of standard chemicals this last spring. He put the right stuff into a lifeless protein bag, sealed it up ,and danged if it didn't come to life all on it's own!
Or, Richard Lenski's 2008 creation of an all-new species in a lab environment, all on it's own, based on natural mutation? All documented, irrefutably, with the new science of DNA genome mapping.
(but on this one, I'll let you do it so you can prove to us that you can indeed look things up on the net without help from the adults...)
Search. Read. Learn. Accept. Be humbled by knowledge, not wooden Gods.
And don't just assume that "Yeah, but it's all faked!" Try to accept that simple, self-reproducing, nutrient-absorbing DNA-based life is no longer that hard to get going. Or that, when life does mutate, which we know it does, potential improvements do occur.
Just imagine what they'll be doing in, say, 25 or 50 or 200 years from now. You want to make any absolute claims that they won't be able to do anything in particular? You willing to bet, let's say, your life's income on such blustering ignorance?
Well, paraphrasing something I read somewhere, There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I find it sad that some people fight science with emotion instead of intellect.
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Someone (me I think, actually...) once said "Dust is there to be left in!"
YO, are you talkin' about me again????????
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No takers, huh?
The Truth is in the Details and Publications. Try reading them!
