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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,995,252 times
Reputation: 40635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moongirl00
Yeah its a shame this thing got so politicized.
It is. It should be simple. Call your medical professional / primary care. Ask. Do what they tell you to.
I have learned enough in the world to know that I don't know much, and the notion I've seen so touted ("do your own research") is horrific advice. There are precious few people able to do their own research on such an issue (or any incredibly complex issue), and I'm a Ph.D./M.D. and decades worth of research far away from making an educated decision on this one.
Thankfully this one is super simple for the professionals it seems. Almost no downside for the vast vast majority of people and tremendous upside. Thankfully.
There is a special place in hell (if it exists) for those promoting conspiracy theories, youtube exposes, blogs, and other misinformation campaigns in a search for click$.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
For me personally, I think you are preaching to the choir. Last spring I got vaccinated with two shots of the moderna vaccine and then again before Thanksgiving and even before anyone knew anything about omnicron, I got my first moderna booster shot.
That said I think that there is plenty of high quality information about vaccination for anyone who has the interest to make an informed decision about the risks and rewards of getting or not getting vaccinated. I also realize that people make medical decisions for a variety of reasons, some that they wish to share with others on a public forum and others that are more private and I get that too. Lastly I sincerely doubt that anyone who looks at the risks and rewards of vaccination differently than me is going to be persuaded by anything that I have to say on this topic. At this point, I don't think many people's minds are open to being persuaded by me or really by anyone else one way or the other.
I very much disagree on this. A tiny tiny percentage of people are qualified to weed through the information and make informed decisions from it. Lets not even broach the abundant misinformation ( infertility, blah blah). What is just as bad, if not worse, is people (I've seen it a lot on CD) posting legitimate information, and then butchering the interpretation. No understanding that correlation /= causation. No rudimentary understanding of statistics. Heck, a score of times, at least, I've seen people post journal blips on how "natural immunity" results in just as strong a protection of the vaccine, while ignoring the real take away of the study which was those with covid antibodies from previous infections benefitted greatly from receiving the vaccine. I only have a MS in biology, so no, I'm not qualified to really weed through all the details and nuance, but people either purposefully or out of ignorance misrepresent what they post.
It's pretty simple. Speak to your doctor. Listen to the experts. If what they say doesn't move you, well, that's scary.
But yeah, I doubt I'm persuading anyone, anymore. I agree with that. It's just frustrating.
Last edited by timberline742; 12-15-2021 at 02:58 PM..
For me its nothing to do with politics. Im pretty apolitical. I mean I observe it with a curious bemused distance, like watching a circus show. These clowns and buffoons are doing all these crazy things, Ill observe but I dont really support anyone nor agree with most of what any of them say or do. The only one I take somewhat seriously is Rand Paul because he usually just makes sense to me and seems fairly balanced and in touch with reality. Hes also a medical doctor which I respect.
Bur yeah the choice to not get vaxxed for me had absolutely nothing to do with politics. It was a carefully considered medical decision. Weighing the risks against the benefits.
I certainly wasn't going to run out and get a shot just because people are posted up in some parking lot with signs that say "Free Covid Vaccine," and sone talking head on TV is telling everyone to do this. I just have a personality that doesnt fall into lockstep just like that. I ask questions.
That said I do agree with my parents' and grandmother's decision to get vaxxed because they are elderly.
/shrug
I wish you'd be a little more respectful of other people's positions, but I get you might feel a little defensive because a lot of people don't respect yours.
Like, just because one is pro vax, does not mean one gets their info from signs in parking lots or talking heads, or even politicians. I've said many times...the sources I trust are epidemiologists, virologists, and stuff I've read where Wired interviewed several of the people who worked in the labs that developed the vaccines. I know in meticulous detail how the science works, and how much effort and time went into producing it.
You have sources you trust. You feel informed about your decision. I have other sources, that I trust, and I feel informed about mine. And that's really just about all there is to say about it, you know?
I wish you'd be a little more respectful of other people's positions, but I get you might feel a little defensive because a lot of people don't respect yours.
Like, just because one is pro vax, does not mean one gets their info from signs in parking lots or talking heads, or even politicians. I've said many times...the sources I trust are epidemiologists, virologists, and stuff I've read where Wired interviewed several of the people who worked in the labs that developed the vaccines. I know in meticulous detail how the science works, and how much effort and time went into producing it.
You have sources you trust. You feel informed about your decision. I have other sources, that I trust, and I feel informed about mine. And that's really just about all there is to say about it, you know?
I actually didn't know this about your research. I might have missed those posts.
I know you are intelligent and have made your own informed choices.
I wasn't implying you didn't, but I think there may ne people out there who have been coerced or manipulated, to get vaxxed, when it wasn't the best choice for them.
This thing is being looked at as way too black and white. Vaxxed = good person, unvaxxed = bad person.....with no regard for the nuances, the legit reasons some people have for not getting vaxxed.
Medicine is not a one size fits all thing. The idea that the vaxx is the one and only solution to the pandemic, and anyone questioning the vaxx is a fringe crazy person, is a dangerous narrative.
Science is about asking questions. Not censoring questions or labeling everything as "misinformation" if its goes against the narrative. Forcing everyone into a box of "this is the only solution, accept it or suffer the consequences."
Its just awful if this is the future of humanity. This is not how civilization works.
I know it's been said over and over, but therapy is so beneficial......
People who post here think we recommend it just to say it, but it's probably one of the best things you can do for yourself. I finally decided to see one and it made me realize I had been tormenting myself over something for the last decade that I DESPERATELY needed to let go of. I was so far gone in the illusion I had created, I was not living in what was right in front of me. It threw me off for a while and I had a short stint of depression but I have since recovered. I'm still learning to cope and deal with the realization but I'm hoping to just get some overall peace at the end of it.
But I said all that to say...I recommend everyone talk to one at some point. It doesn't even have to be because you're struggling, but just to help you get some self awareness and to learn how to understand your own emotional make up. Maybe I'm biased because I'm currently studying to get my master's in counseling. But I still think it's a great investment for yourself .
I served on a state level pandemic planning committee for over 3 years. This is actually going well, with treatments being developed so quickly. Without that, our supply chains and food processing would have taken a much bigger hit. But essentially, this is going along within all the planning parameters. Medium level pandemic.
While this is a pain, this all wasn't unexpected, whether a coronavirus or an influenza (my bet was on bird flu H5N1), or some "other."
It's not the first, and it will not be the last.
Going into the 3rd year and I haven't killed my spouse yet. Win.
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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,995,252 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43
I served on a state level pandemic planning committee for over 3 years. This is actually going well, with treatments being developed so quickly. Without that, our supply chains and food processing would have taken a much bigger hit. But essentially, this is going along within all the planning parameters. Medium level pandemic.
While this is a pain, this all wasn't unexpected, whether a coronavirus or an influenza (my bet was on bird flu H5N1), or some "other."
It's not the first, and it will not be the last.
Going into the 3rd year and I haven't killed my spouse yet. Win.
Definitely not. Way back in the early 90s I remember even in undergrad talking about zoonotic disease transmission from the bushmeat trade (not the only way it happens, of course, but it was in my biological focus).
These jumps are happening often, its just that "everything" needs to line up for it to become a major issue. Really, with this one, one sick merchant might have ended up staying home for a day or two and this may have never taken off.
I actually didn't know this about your research. I might have missed those posts.
I know you are intelligent and have made your own informed choices.
I wasn't implying you didn't, but I think there may ne people out there who have been coerced or manipulated, to get vaxxed, when it wasn't the best choice for them.
This thing is being looked at as way too black and white. Vaxxed = good person, unvaxxed = bad person.....with no regard for the nuances, the legit reasons some people have for not getting vaxxed.
Medicine is not a one size fits all thing. The idea that the vaxx is the one and only solution to the pandemic, and anyone questioning the vaxx is a fringe crazy person, is a dangerous narrative.
Science is about asking questions. Not censoring questions or labeling everything as "misinformation" if its goes against the narrative. Forcing everyone into a box of "this is the only solution, accept it or suffer the consequences."
Its just awful if this is the future of humanity. This is not how civilization works.
In all fairness, my comments about that were likely in Chapter Three, Paragraph Ten, Subsection Five of one of my notorious walls of text. So I kinda can't blame you.
I just think we have to be careful about our chosen experts these days. As Timber here is saying, there's a LOT of information (and misinformation) available to us. And that old, "do your research" thing... Like I don't really say that I "did my research" because like I did not conduct experiments or even "studies" to find anything out. None of us laypersons has the time to become an expert in the many things we need to be informed about! But what we can do, is try to choose the experts that we trust with care. Check for source citations and check the quality of those, and consider their credentials and area of expertise.
And always, ALWAYS be wary of any information you receive if it does one of two things:
- Immediately makes you feel validated and right about something.
- Makes you outraged and upset about something.
I'm not saying that either means it should be discarded out of hand, but either DOES mean it deserves closer scrutiny, an extra moment to fact check, check if the publishing entity is legit and/or a biased and untrustworthy source, check THEIR sources (which should be cited)...etc.
Also... ehm, Timberline, I wanted to mention to you that there are actually a number of people in medicine who don't trust the vaccine. I've met a few, myself. So even, "talk to your doctor" might not always get the answer you would think.
I just did not want to mess with conflicting thoughts from various doctors, nurses, pediatricians, pharmacists, and holistic wellness folks or whatnot, I was like "OK, it's great they have a degree in this or that field of medicine, but do they study epidemics, virology, or vaccines in special depth? No? Well can I hear from the people who do, please? Great. Oh and the lab nerds who build this particular vaccine tech, too, we've got interviews with them? Awesome."
I had a Covid and was asymptomatic. My mom is a surgeon and has spent the last two years reading up on the virus and listening to the so called experts. Her and my dad have gotten the jabs, but she cautioned me against it. I am young, in excellent health and still in my child bearing years ( we want one or two more). I will mask up and social distance when out and about, but I am not getting vaccinated. I do think that those who are at risk should get it though especially if they’re older or have other health issues.
In all fairness, my comments about that were likely in Chapter Three, Paragraph Ten, Subsection Five of one of my notorious walls of text. So I kinda can't blame you.
I just think we have to be careful about our chosen experts these days. As Timber here is saying, there's a LOT of information (and misinformation) available to us. And that old, "do your research" thing... Like I don't really say that I "did my research" because like I did not conduct experiments or even "studies" to find anything out. None of us laypersons has the time to become an expert in the many things we need to be informed about! But what we can do, is try to choose the experts that we trust with care. Check for source citations and check the quality of those, and consider their credentials and area of expertise.
And always, ALWAYS be wary of any information you receive if it does one of two things:
- Immediately makes you feel validated and right about something.
- Makes you outraged and upset about something.
I'm not saying that either means it should be discarded out of hand, but either DOES mean it deserves closer scrutiny, an extra moment to fact check, check if the publishing entity is legit and/or a biased and untrustworthy source, check THEIR sources (which should be cited)...etc.
Also... ehm, Timberline, I wanted to mention to you that there are actually a number of people in medicine who don't trust the vaccine. I've met a few, myself. So even, "talk to your doctor" might not always get the answer you would think.
I just did not want to mess with conflicting thoughts from various doctors, nurses, pediatricians, pharmacists, and holistic wellness folks or whatnot, I was like "OK, it's great they have a degree in this or that field of medicine, but do they study epidemics, virology, or vaccines in special depth? No? Well can I hear from the people who do, please? Great. Oh and the lab nerds who build this particular vaccine tech, too, we've got interviews with them? Awesome."
Excellent points!
If anyone is interested, these are the people I follow, all medical doctors.
I have just personally gravitated towards these three individuals because they come across as very balanced in their research. Not biased. Looking at things from all angles. And they are all practicing physicians, from Canada, the UK, and a former British citizen, now naturalized American citizen, so American political leanings are not likely to be influencing them.
Ive also followed liberal biology PhDs Heather Heying and Brett Weinstein.
I dont know if anyone in interested enough to check out these people, but for the sake of full disclosure here, I just wanted to share the sources I trust and am listening to. Far from crazy fringe sources.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,995,252 times
Reputation: 40635
Dr. John Campbell is not a medical doctor. He is a nurse with a Ph.D (in education). Very different. Bright guy, but not a medical doctor.
Dr. Dhand is internal medicine, not infectious disease, not epidemiology. I have friends who work at one of the hospitals he was effectively sacked here in Mass from (pushed out of affiliation of) for spreading misinformation. Definitely considered a crazy fringe opportunist in the Massachusetts hospital community.
Dr. Moran I don't know.
I have to wonder why people aren't listening to epidemiologists and their own doctors. This is part of the danger of "doing one's own research", people end up conclusion shopping.
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