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once they swarm or herd, pretty tough to split them up, estrogen binds them together.-
if one man tries to split the herd- watch out- even a group of lionesses will chase off a more dominant outside male..
and so what- if they have a place of their own,,, leave em be,,
if its their safe harbor,,,then leave em be-
one woman once told me- you men will never know how vulnerable it is to be a woman,- up to that point, i've never really thought about it-but its true- so, im sure they share some unique viewpoints, and perspectives...which to us (men) doesnt seem like much,,,but its very serious to them
Your response is very interesting to me. The words originally used, and the words you chose to quote are different enough to change the meaning. What was said was MANY men have a TENDENCY to box women in. In my mind, that phrasing implies there are, of course, exceptions. The other statement was MANY believe a woman's only purpose is to get a man. For the generation we're talking about, that was very real belief of many men AND women.
I don't intend to come across as nit-picky, or angry or hostile - and I don't think your post was, either. I just find this an interesting example of how things get misread and misunderstood on these forums. Escort's original post was also misunderstood by some. Imagine how much better everyone could get along if we all sought to understand instead of argue. (And I mean that for all of "we", not singling out chessgeek by any means)
I also saw the same thing and I was gonna post about it. This thread is a perfect example of how sometimes arguments are raised out of misunderstandings.
We all do it. We read things others never said. It is possible the OP and those responding to him in the other thread did the same thing. And this is printed, it gets worse with spoken language that didn't get recorded. The everlasting argument "you said this" "no I didn't" is not going away any time soon.
And memories? Those are even worse. Studies have proven time and time again that we change memories and they are quite unreliable. Perception is quite an interesting subject.
I agree with Sugah Ray about the passive-aggressiveness. Your posts reek of a certain seething anger.
I do believe in the past you have posted about your disdain for your mother. Perhaps that's the origin of the wrath? (Since this is a Psychology forum, I think it's fair to note that.)
Also, I fail to understand what could be so "difficult" to understand about why women would want a thread to themselves - especially if you had read any of the noted thread, which is so rich and intimate. Can you imagine being a part of such a warm community and then having someone change the dynamics - think about that. They had the thread for seven years and then a male came in and demanded it be changed and the title was actually changed to accommodate the male - and the female's opinions on the matter were pushed to the side. Can you understand how upsetting that could be (from many perspectives: ruining their "safe place," pulling male rank on them, etc.)
It would be great if you could acknowledge your own feelings of outrage and talk about that - as opposed to focusing on "the other side."
You seem to highly value rationality - perhaps at the cost of being aware of emotions that inform your opinions?
People this is a message board which means your going to get different views and personalities. If some can't handle a bit of male verse female conflict on a message board how do they handle it in real life?
People this is a message board which means your going to get different views and personalities. If some can't handle a bit of male verse female conflict on a message board how do they handle it in real life?
Thats not really an accurate analogy. IRL pretend they had a place to go that was women only for 7 years. they went there every day, met friends, cried, shared stories and supported each other. then one day the place was open to men and women. So while they are in there doing what they do, a man wlaks in and sits down. Do you think the dynamic would change?
What i wonder is if the Mod that made the change can live with himself given all the distress he has caused in peoples lives, right or wrong. I know i would feel horrible doing anything that would have caused this much upheavel in other lifes, real life or otherwise.
Escort, may I ask: Do you want my opinion even if it means I don't agree with you? If you don't then please skip the next paragraphs because you are not gonna like them. Seriously, skip them if you don't want any criticism.
Ok here I go:
I get the feeling you think most of us think Runningwithscissors' post was angry and your post is rational and emotion free. That is not the reality, not everybody feels the same way you do. I know I don't. I think you are being just as emotional as she was, you are just using passive agressiveness.
I think you are letting your need to prove the world that you are "right" and defensiveness block your empathy. Did you feel any empathy when she described her parents? The experiences she described are very traumatic and she wants her space and want feedback from people who she thinks empathize with her experiences. Why not leave it alone? She is the one in pain, not you, you are not in her shoes. When I say "she" I am also referring to the women in the retirement forum. People want to be around those who they feel empathize with their pain.
I know you probably don't like my answer but that is how I perceive that interaction.
In choosing to post on a public internet forum, and being a mature, rational individual, I can not only accept criticism and disagreement, but I expect them. Your preface, which I took the liberty of bolding above, is rather strange. Of course I want your opinion; I specifically asked for people's opinions in my original post, and I did not say anything about only opinions which agreed with mine.
As for the parents of Runswithscissors, it was not even clear to me those were her parents. She was giving examples of traumas and difficulties women had faced in their lives, and it sounded to me as if they could have been the parents of some other women she knows just as easily as they could have been her own parents.
There are lots of wounded individuals out there, of both genders. Extreme trauma is not limited to women. To a limited extent I can see where there might be a small point of convergence in our views: I chose to defend myself against some rather vicious and overly emotional attacks instead of focusing on the ways in which my attacker had suffered in life. However, I would posit that such a focus, which I find natural, does not mean that I am "just as emotional as she is". Try to imagine yourself as the victim of a similar verbal attack, let's say by a man although I don't see what difference that makes; you respond calmly, but in rebuttal, and then someone calls you emotional. Does that make any sense?
I have a very hard time escaping the conclusion that Runswithscissors gets a pass in your book because she is female, and I can do no right (no matter what I actually do) because I am male. Now you didn't say that in so many words, but I don't see any other way to understand your post.
From the time I was a little girl I have preferred the company of men to that of women. My mother was always trying to make me into "a lady," but the only example of ladies I had were the ones she associated with at church or in our family, and I'm sorry to say they were mostly back-stabbers. A kid gets to hear stuff that the adults won't say where the person they're talking about can hear. When I was in my teens, my father used to take me to the Legion or the VFW and I never heard those guys putting down a fellow member unless there was a serious problem. Also, I could talk about problems that I was having and if I talked to one particular person, it went no farther (further?) than them.
I have to say I'm sorry for the guys who had men-only clubs and were forced to take women in. That's not including the Legion and VFW, because there are female veterans who belong there, and wives/daughters of vets who also belong there. Most men wouldn't want to infiltrate a women-only club. LOL
I agree with Sugah Ray about the passive-aggressiveness. Your posts reek of a certain seething anger.
I do believe in the past you have posted about your disdain for your mother. Perhaps that's the origin of the wrath? (Since this is a Psychology forum, I think it's fair to note that.)
Also, I fail to understand what could be so "difficult" to understand about why women would want a thread to themselves - especially if you had read any of the noted thread, which is so rich and intimate. Can you imagine being a part of such a warm community and then having someone change the dynamics - think about that. They had the thread for seven years and then a male came in and demanded it be changed and the title was actually changed to accommodate the male - and the female's opinions on the matter were pushed to the side. Can you understand how upsetting that could be (from many perspectives: ruining their "safe place," pulling male rank on them, etc.)
It would be great if you could acknowledge your own feelings of outrage and talk about that - as opposed to focusing on "the other side."
You seem to highly value rationality - perhaps at the cost of being aware of emotions that inform your opinions?
After several years of reading your posts, I have concluded that your armchair psychoanalyzing lacks all credibility and validity. You seem unable to take a statement at face value but instead (in this case) feel a need to impute some "seething anger". Well, there is no defense against your fantasies, of course; you can make up anything you wish. In other words, how can I be expected to prove a negative? It's like saying to someone - prove you didn't commit the murder. Naturally I cannot prove the absence of "seething anger", especially to anyone determined to see it whether it exists or not.
In choosing to post on a public internet forum, and being a mature, rational individual, I can not only accept criticism and disagreement, but I expect them. Your preface, which I took the liberty of bolding above, is rather strange. Of course I want your opinion; I specifically asked for people's opinions in my original post, and I did not say anything about only opinions which agreed with mine.
As for the parents of Runswithscissors, it was not even clear to me those were her parents. She was giving examples of traumas and difficulties women had faced in their lives, and it sounded to me as if they could have been the parents of some other women she knows just as easily as they could have been her own parents.
There are lots of wounded individuals out there, of both genders. Extreme trauma is not limited to women. To a limited extent I can see where there might be a small point of convergence in our views: I chose to defend myself against some rather vicious and overly emotional attacks instead of focusing on the ways in which my attacker had suffered in life. However, I would posit that such a focus, which I find natural, does not mean that I am "just as emotional as she is". Try to imagine yourself as the victim of a similar verbal attack, let's say by a man although I don't see what difference that makes; you respond calmly, but in rebuttal, and then someone calls you emotional. Does that make any sense?
I have a very hard time escaping the conclusion that Runswithscissors gets a pass in your book because she is female, and I can do no right (no matter what I actually do) because I am male. Now you didn't say that in so many words, but I don't see any other way to understand your post.
Does it matter if it is her own experience or not? I don't know if it is but I feel she empathizes with how difficult is being a caregiver. Most women spend their lives first caring for their children and then for their parents. People want to hear from people who understand their situations because they want empathy and accurate results. Most older men have women taking care of them and don't understand how it is to be by yourself or be the head of the family who takes care of the sick and impaired. Yes there are men in those situations but it's not the norm. Once you open the doors to men you will get the clueless people posting self rightious comments about things they are unfamiliar with. "You should do this and that" "you got what you deserve" bla, bla, bla People can be very cruel and overconfident about their knowlegde, even when they have zero experience.
Have you ever been in situations where people who have not been in your shoes tell you how you should feel or act? Did you feel wronged? Do you understand that opening the doors to men will attract men who are not familiar with those struggles?
Now the most important question and I hope you answer it: Do you feel empathy for those women or not? Do you feel sad for their loneliness? Do want people in pain to feel better? Sometimes you help more with your absence.
Now the most important question and I hope you answer it: Do you feel empathy for those women or not? Do you feel sad for their loneliness? Do want people in pain to feel better? Sometimes you help more with your absence.
I am happy to answer. Yes, I absolutely feel empathy for all who suffer, whether it be from loneliness or from other things, and whether the sufferers be male or female. Let's take loneliness, for example. While it is probably true that statistically more older women than men suffer from loneliness, that particular suffering is certainly not limited to women, and yes, I feel sad for their loneliness. There are so many sufferers in life, including young people, middle-aged people, and children. I am especially attuned to the suffering of children. (Gee, I hope no one is going to say that proves I am callous toward older people). I work as a volunteer in four different schools, two elementary and two middle schools, reading aloud to fifth grade classes and conducting lunch-time chess clubs at all four schools. I am particularly conscious of projecting good will, and it seems to be reciprocated.
Here is an interesting sentence to analyze: "Sometimes you help more with your absence." That sentence comes on the heels of examples of men who have responded in less than sensitive ways. Well, I personally would never presume to comment on the stress of caregiving except to sympathize with it, as I have never been in that role. What your sentence is expressing is that some bad experiences at the hands of males has resulted in a generalized hostility towards and distrust of males. I am so sorry that so many have been wounded in that way; I feel sorry for them and for their suffering. However, when that woundedness is translated into vicious, personal attacks and mean-spirited invective directed against males (not referring to you personally in that regard), nothing productive comes of it, and it seems to me only natural that the victims of such attacks would think first of defending themselves, and only second of the pain which produced the pathology.
Now, you are forcing me to focus on the second aspect (the pain which produced the pathology) and I think that's a good thing! Because that pain, too, is part of the picture and without considering it, it is not possible to understand the whole picture.
So that's an example of the benefits of dialogue between two people possessed of enough good will to be able to actually listen to the other party. Not everyone who has posted in this thread is capable of that, but many are. That's a good thing too, otherwise I would reap only frustration from having started this thread.
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