Not Now, Europe. Second War Threatens to Explode (Afghanistan, Clinton, Obama)
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We Americans are part of a nation that is really in its infancy compared to many of the much older nations of Europe, and totally absent the historical blood conflicts with competing neighbor nations that so many of those nations contend with. We simply cannot understand that which we have no experience or history.
The fact is, there are deep seated ethnic conflicts that are rooted in past historical conflicts and atrocities committed against one another to which these groups cannot forget, or forgive. While many have agreed to coexist, the underlying ethnic, cultural and religious differences that have existed for hundreds of years is unlikely to vanish. Periodically, those tensions flare up, and the hatred of one another smolders under the surface. It doesn’t take much to re-stoke the fire.
The Muslims and Christians don’t like each other, and from an historical perspective, it isn’t difficult to understand why. During a 1,000 year period, at the peak of the conflict, Muslims successfully conquered and subjugated 2/3 of Europe, only to be pushed back, representing several hundred years of bloody conflict. The last vestiges of this Muslim dictate only fell in the 20th Century, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Now, compare that to the silly conflicts we cannot seem to overcome here in the United States, as so many become deeply “offended” by any word or gesture that might be misconstrued as disparaging. Hardly comparative to ancient conflicts which involve the slaughter and enslavement of one’s cultural ancestors.
I agree with the general thrust of your post , but I'd like to add that Albanians cannot/should not be held responsible as such for the sins of the Ottoman Empire or even take the entirety of the blame for the ongoing Kosovo crisis , just like Serbians shouldn't be held entirely responsible for the eruption of the Yugoslav Wars like they so often wrongly are by many people .
What frustrates me as a longtime American expat living in Europe about our government/political establishment is that it consistently refuses to actually try and help ease the tensions here , what with it's tendency to selectively pick sides according to false narratives about " good and bad guys " , a thing which unfortunately all too great a part of the unknowing American general public goes along with .
To add even more context to the cultural/religious aspect of the issue you've already rightly touched on , and without hopefully straying too far off topic , there have also been shootings linked to violent migrant smugglers ( who also tend to be of Muslim background ) along Serbia's northern border to boot :
This combination of fairly recent unchecked Middle Eastern mass immigration with this new low point in Serbian-Albanian relations in connection to Kosovo , might end up turning real ugly fairly fast , particularly if ( and I'm truly sad to type this ) the American establishment once again tries to take the one sided approach to this issue .
We Americans are part of a nation that is really in its infancy compared to many of the much older nations of Europe, and totally absent the historical blood conflicts with competing neighbor nations that so many of those nations contend with. We simply cannot understand that which we have no experience or history.
The fact is, there are deep seated ethnic conflicts that are rooted in past historical conflicts and atrocities committed against one another to which these groups cannot forget, or forgive. While many have agreed to coexist, the underlying ethnic, cultural and religious differences that have existed for hundreds of years is unlikely to vanish. Periodically, those tensions flare up, and the hatred of one another smolders under the surface. It doesn’t take much to re-stoke the fire.
Back in my youth I dated a Christian Lebanese woman of Armenian decent. Her hatred of both Muslim Lebanese and Turks was off the charts. Until I met her I knew little about the conflict between Armenians and Turks.
The ethnic and religious hatreds run wide and deep throughout Europe, the only thing that has kept the peace was when nukes were on the table so to speak.
We're very spoiled in North America at this point, even with some divisions and idiotic groups, it's nothing compared to the mess you see in Europe, Africa and Asia.
The Serbs are trouble makers. Like their cousins the Russians they are always on the wrong side of history. With everyone focused on Ukrainian they probably think it’s a good time to move against Kosovo, I’m sure they will do it.
What else can we expect from the people who set off World War One? I’m sure ole Vlad will be proud of his Balkan buddies.
Back in my youth I dated a Christian Lebanese woman of Armenian decent. Her hatred of both Muslim Lebanese and Turks was off the charts. Until I met her I knew little about the conflict between Armenians and Turks.
These are small aggressive minorities brainwashed by intense propaganda, hundreds of thousands of them live in Türkiye for better living conditions.
I think its human nature to judge others by their differences. Here its easy with race. But Japan does that. So does India and then you have Europe.
IF these two countries want to duke it out, let them. We should not send one penny. If European countries want to, that is their business. I do support our involvement in Ukraine. Money wise its a drop in the bucket and the one effect it had early on (high gas prices) has gone away. It was time for the world to stand up to Putin. Not a fan of Biden but we had a POTUS for 4 years that kissed Putin's behind.
Obama/Biden were the ones that kissed puddins butt
Trump had more sanctions on russia then anyone in the last 15 years
when did russia take Crimea ...during Obama/biden
when did russia attack Ukraine...during Biden/harris
when did all the conflict in the former Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia (including the regions of Kosovo and Vojvodina) and Slovenia) start ..during the 90's, during the Clinton admin.... I was deployed to Bosnia during the very late 90's
Last edited by workingclasshero; 12-28-2022 at 09:20 AM..
Europe needs to tend to their own disputes. One way is allow them to build up their militaries.. If Ukraine has been allowed to keep the nukes it had might not be in the position were are today.. After the first Cold War many seemed to put them on the back burner between old WWII treaties, NATO and US subsidies. They became dependent. They have to become much more responsible for themselves
Obama/Biden were the ones that kissed puddins butt
Trump had more sanctions on russia then anyone in the last 15 years
when did russia take Crimea ...during Obama/biden
when did russia attack Ukraine...during Biden/harris
when did all the conflict in the former Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia (including the regions of Kosovo and Vojvodina) and Slovenia) ..during the 90's, during the Clinton admin.... I was deployed to Bosnia during the very late 90's
I am not a fan of Biden or Obama. But I disagree. Obama had more sanctions designated by year that Trump. Congress passed the major sanctions during Trumps term and Trump begrudgingly signed them. If you look at the chart above from 2014-2016 Obama had over 100 sanctions per year. By 2019 under Trump sanctions fell to near zero.
Regarding the wars started by Putin during Obama and Biden. I think John Bolton who was very close to Trump in the WH explains it best:
“To Putin’s mind its a binary proposition, a weaker Nato is a stronger Russia so I think Putin saw Trump doing a lot of his work for him, and thought maybe in a second term Trump would make good on his promise to get out of Nato”.
“You never know with Trump,” Mr Bolton said. “It depends on what time of day it is, it depends on what he thought his political benefit would be at any given moment. I don’t think ultimately he would have stood in Putin’s way”.
What is also funny is a large chunk of Ottoman forces are actually the sons of various Balkan peoples who were taken by the Ottomans, converted to Islam, and trained to be fighters for the Sultanate.
That article references one nobleman who lived for a short period. The Turks controlled Albania for 500 years.
The Janissaries we're Christians that were kidnapped, brainwashed, forcibly converted to Islam, then sent to fight as suicide troops against their own countries.
Vlad Tepish, Dracula, lost his brother to the Janissaries, and his brother led attacks against Vlad.
With Vlad's death, the Turks put the brother on the throne as a puppet ruler under their control.
The history of that area is long and complicated.
Wikipedia can be written by anybody, and you need to look at better historical sources if you really want to know about that region.
The hatred runs bone deep.
After one Serbian uprising against the Turks, the Turks beheaded the rebels, then mortared their skulls into the wall of a castle. The Skull Castle still stands with the skulls of over 500 men still looking out from the wall.
This is a cultural war that's gone on for hundreds of years. Don't think Americans can easily relate to what these people feel.
I am not a fan of Biden or Obama. But I disagree. Obama had more sanctions designated by year that Trump. Congress passed the major sanctions during Trumps term and Trump begrudgingly signed them. If you look at the chart above from 2014-2016 Obama had over 100 sanctions per year. By 2019 under Trump sanctions fell to near zero.
Regarding the wars started by Putin during Obama and Biden. I think John Bolton who was very close to Trump in the WH explains it best:
“To Putin’s mind its a binary proposition, a weaker Nato is a stronger Russia so I think Putin saw Trump doing a lot of his work for him, and thought maybe in a second term Trump would make good on his promise to get out of Nato”.
“You never know with Trump,” Mr Bolton said. “It depends on what time of day it is, it depends on what he thought his political benefit would be at any given moment. I don’t think ultimately he would have stood in Putin’s way”.
Kosovo is unlikely to take on NATO, indeed last time they did so they ended up being bombed.
It's also worth noting that there is a NATO and allied peacekeeping forces of 3.700 in Kosovo, a tiny country of 1.8 million.
I think this is being blown out of all proportion, and in reality it would be an extremely foolish move for tiny Kosovo to provoke NATO forces.
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