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And it sure pointed unmistakably what was going on in the country, and where the epicenters of the discontent were. And they were DEFINITELY NOT in the part of the country that overwhelmingly voted for Yanukovich.
So yet another unmistakable sign of the region, whose rights were tramped upon by American government.
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a whole bunch happened after that ... all the way up to February 2022.
AND after that - I saw it all happening.
The mass protests in the South-East, people stopping Ukrainian tanks with their bare hands, the attempts to create not only independent republics in Donbass, but in Kharkov too, ( Odessa as well from what I remember.)
Hopes for Russia's help... Then Putin's betrayal.
of course whole bunch happened after that.
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Ukraine itself changed significantly between 2014 and 2022,
Oh that's already a different subject.
Of course once the Nationalists realized that Russia was not going to intervene, they went the full force ahead - murdering, arresting, torturing, subjugating, "re-educating" the population of the South-East.
The new ideology took over ( or rather the revived one from the WWII manuscripts.)
All went exactly as it should with the ideology of the Nationalist state.
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due to the Russian incursion.
Au contraire - due to realization that Russia was not going to intervene beyond Crimea.
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Putin inadvertently helped prior so-called nationalists to 'unify' Ukraine. The west and the east that arguably had different experiences found they had more in common.
Of course he did. By his inaction he inadvertently helped the Nationalists to tighten their grip on the South-East. All while America, the super-power was backing up the Nationalists, the South-East was betrayed by Russia ( Putin to be exact.)
And that's why the Nationalist had the green light to act in their murderous ways.
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Can't believe you said that with a straight face. The history of each individual city actually is incredibly interesting ...the players ... the motivations. The one honest thing you said early on in this thread is that Ukraine came to fascinate you for it was so profoundly complex. Each event is like a puzzle to be unwoven with multiple interests in play.
Of course I did.
I was posting on the subject of Ukraine for the last eight years, it's all on the record.
So of course I was watching closely what was taking place there, as *complex as Ukraine is.*
As far as your comment about Poland "cutting Belorussia away from Russia", the last I heard Belarus was an independent sovereign state, not a part of Russia, and could on it's own volition ask to join the EU or even NATO if it wanted to. Russia has no claim on Belarus..
Yup. I’ve worked with a couple of companies based out of Belarus, and I think they are going the same way as Ukraine. They will oust their Putin-puppet government soon. Maybe even before Putin is dead. And they will be in a similar situation as Ukraine is now. We need to be ready to arm them too, when they decide they should be an independent nation with their own sovereignty.
The puppet was Yanukovych, installed by meddling from Putin's dark operatives ... with the help of Paul Manafort.
Ukraine has had two free elections, and a peaceful transfer of power. In this last election the people elected a Russian speaking easterner, and BTW a patriot, and the people support him.
Ukraine is definitely a democracy. Democracy is working.
All they need now is to keep meddlers like Putin out of their elections and out of their country.
You are quite the conspiracy theorist.
I am sorry if your world is still revolving around your hatred of Trump ( because Manafort was from his team if I remember correctly,) but no, not everything in this world is about it.
So you need to learn a thing or two I suspect, before proceeding with your conspiracy theories;
"On 14 February Yanukovych was declared President-elect and winner with 48.95% of the popular vote."
"Public Opinion Polls predicted the Party of Regions and Viktor Yanukovych's win in the 2010 Presidential election. in February 2010. According to an article in Kyiv Post in November 2009, Yanukovych's popularity in the Donbass was fading and Donbass voters voted mainly for Yanukovych to keep Tymoshenko from power."
No "Manafort" can do anything, if people's vote targets primarily their desire to get rid of someone ( Timoshenko in this case.)
In the same manner as during the last elections 73% of Ukrainians were voting with idea in mind to get rid of American puppet Poroshenko and his policies that were destroying the country.
Only 42% were voting actually for Zelensky himself.
Too bad that after all his promises he actually doubled down on Poroshenko's policies instead.
And it sure pointed unmistakably what was going on in the country, and where the epicenters of the discontent were. And they were DEFINITELY NOT in the part of the country that overwhelmingly voted for Yanukovich.
So yet another unmistakable sign of the region, whose rights were tramped upon by American government.
Donbas, of course, supported Yanukovych its native son who rewarded the area with a disproportionate number of appointments and national tax receipts. It was possible for a pro-Russian to be elected in 2010 and again a Russian-speaker in 2019 (albeit with more support from the east). That's part of the larger tragedy: while historical and ethnic divisions existed within the country its Russian minority was well integrated far more so than in other potential hot spots - until Strelkov and Putin destabilized Ukraine using militarized forces.
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Originally Posted by erasure
The mass protests in the South-East, people stopping Ukrainian tanks with their bare hands, the attempts to create not only independent republics in Donbass, but in Kharkov too, ( Odessa as well from what I remember.)
Hopes for Russia's help... Then Putin's betrayal.
Its Kharkiv, among other cities, that I was thinking of when saying events are local. Kharkiv rejected separatism in 2014 due to influence from multiple local power centers but oddly enough not an American in sight. Outside the oligarchical and political influences not to mention (for Kharkiv) the criminal element, the larger population while prizing Russian culture and language had little interest in Russian domination - Donbas style.
Earlier I cited local newspaper articles from 8 years ago discussing how Kharkiv, a university town substantially differed in outlook from your rough Donbas miners. All Russian-speakers are not identical. In Odessa, Gennadiy Trukhanov had become mayor by May 2014. A pro-Russian, but still in the end a Ukrainian 'nationalist' - and again another story. Once again, these gross generalizations always leading back to the Americans or neo-Nazis are a non-starter.
Certainly Americans were meddling, but they were only one of multiple influences. Oddly enough they appeared willing to meddle working with Yanukovych which goes counter to the 'coup-story.' One more very complex situation that gets grossly simplified.
More broadly, Ukrainians long-sought independence from Russia ... it was impacted by the rise of nationalism in the 19th century ... various events including the Putin invasion in 2014-15 helped tie the country together. With an enemy in town so-to-speak, nationalism and nationalistic displays did become more evident thru-out the country. That showed by 2022, along with troops trained for a resurgence of the 2014-15 invasion - another Putin error.
Arguably this had more to do with Putin than the Americans and certainly little if nothing to do with the German Nazis during ww2. If anything neo-Nazi extremists groups were a potential threat to the central government and to the oligarchy and to a western-oriented foreign policy - although for now they hate Russians more.
Last edited by EveryLady; 06-07-2022 at 02:13 PM..
A referendum in Crimea pointed to an overwhelming desire by the Russian population to rejoin Russia, you call that "local traitors."
Stick to your defense of BBC.
It was a bogus referendum like all Russian referendums. Yes, Russia would have probably easily won a fair one, but its irrelevant. Crimea was part of the Ukraine and elements of the Ukraine military deserted and betrayed their oath and helped a foreign country take over Ukrainian territory. So yes, traitors.
I am sorry if your world is still revolving around your hatred of Trump ( because Manafort was from his team if I remember correctly,) but no, not everything in this world is about it.
...
Trump is a different story, it has no place here. That was a connection you made.
Manafort was hired for his political expertise by a Russian oligarch with connections to Putin on behalf of Viktor Yanukovych. Manafort's close collaborator was Konstantin Kilimnik, an operative of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, a military intelligence operation something like a CIA or KGB.
Konstantin Kilimnik today resides in a two million dollar mansion in a gated community near to a Main Directorate base for hackers at Khimki, north-west of Moscow. Nice work if you can get it.
Trump is a different story, it has no place here. That was a connection you made.
Manafort was hired for his political expertise by a Russian oligarch with connections to Putin on behalf of Viktor Yanukovych. Manafort's close collaborator was Konstantin Kilimnik, an operative of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, a military intelligence operation something like a CIA or KGB.
Konstantin Kilimnik today resides in a two million dollar mansion in a gated community near to a Main Directorate base for hackers at Khimki, north-west of Moscow. Nice work if you can get it.
And Manafort's partner in that endeavor was Tony Podesta, brother of Hillary Clinton's campaign manager. So influential Americans were also helping Putin's guy, not just trying to run him off. So the narrative that the Americans decided what happened in Ukraine is clearly bogus. They helped both sides.
They won’t be able to do that much longer, with the new weapons coming in as early as today.
The Ukrainians are already very, very good at counterbattery. Add PGM and longer range...
Can't find the video now - Russian propagandist showing off a Russian MLRS firing. 50 seconds later, the first Ukrainian shell strikes the position. 40 seconds after that, he and his crew are running for their lives.
I'm loosing faith in western support for Ukraine..military experts say the 4 long range rocket systems the US is sending and the 3 or 4 that Great Britian is sending is but a mere drop in the ocean for what they effectively need..a British artillery commander says that maybe 100 might make a difference..start watching the video at 5:00 in..
The Ukrainians are already very, very good at counterbattery. Add PGM and longer range...
Can't find the video now - Russian propagandist showing off a Russian MLRS firing. 50 seconds later, the first Ukrainian shell strikes the position. 40 seconds after that, he and his crew are running for their lives.
Apparently being an artillery soldier can be very dangerous these days. Remember an article where the reporter was with the Ukrainians. They fired and then told the reporter they had to move with their equipment. Several minutes later shells started falling around their old position.
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