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So what if that's even true? Stupid Putin/Kremlin still started it unprovoked to try to grab land illegally and even with a small force, you will kill civilians who had no part in this. You Russians always try to spin it around by throwing in words like "settlement" and "peace."
Russia will have to lose here. It's still a "war" unprovoked.
I already explained my position that answers the "So what?".
It is wrong to equate retaliation & defense with what you describe.
It was not "unprovoked" and they were going to get what they feel is theirs, and they were scammed out of: https://www.city-data.com/forum/64689569-post11232.html
I am a proud American, a Veteran even. But I do not turn a blind eye to what I think is wrong.
No entity is perfect...and I believe that the West/NATO is wrong in this situation.
Putin is no more wrong to want the United Republic restored...than Native Americans would have been 30 years after the Trail-of-Tears to want to try to get back what was separated from their possession.
...
The fact that they went in with a force half the size of what they were going against...is the prima facie evidence that their intentions were not "invasion"...
They crossed the border without permission. They fired their weapons within the borders of Ukraine, they rounded up civilians who protested their presence and murdered them.
They attempted to assassinate the leadership of Ukraine.
It was an invasion.
These are all acts of war, and in many case also crimes against humanity.
So you can't just make up excuses for them, pretending that their incompetence is part of the plan. They went in attempting regime change, they didn't assess their needs properly and used too few troops to overwhelm the country! That is no defense ... it is an illustration of Putin's hubris and poor judgment.
Would you have preferred the Russians did to Ukraine like Desert Storm, and carried out 100,000 Air Missions in 40 days...and blasted them to rubble?
It's not within their capacity.
Quote:
If it was the Russian intention to carry out a "invasion"...then they would have done what they are know for (and what is the Military Standard) and gone in with a force that was at least 3X the mass & scale of the defending opposition.
They were going for a decapitation strike and expected at most a civil uprising. The FSB had bribed everybody, or at least told the Kremlin they'd done so.
Quote:
Instead...they only went in with 120 - 150K...to preempt and deter. That is not anywhere near a "Invasion" force level.
In fact...the Russians are known for always using overwhelming levels of mass & scale...even beyond the standards...whenever they "invade".
The fact that they went in with a force half the size of what they were going against...is the prima facie evidence that their intentions were not "invasion", but just a "Special Military Operation" to deter and preempt in a defensive measure.
This is just stupid. You don't cross a border in underforce and then expect concessions at the negotiation table. In what world does that work? And it completely ignores the air and ground based attempt at taking Kyiv, which failed to such a remarkable extent.
It's fun reading your fanfic, but it's disconnected from reality.
Russia's initial actions only fit one pattern: That of a country and an army believing their own most optimistic assumptions. The FSB had bribed the right people, Zelensky would run, the Ukrainians really did want to be a Russian satellite state, the boys would be back in summer. Take Kyiv and then it would just be a matter of pacifying civilians, a job at which the Russian soldier excels.
Listening to your own BS is a cardinal sin in statecraft and warfare.
Last edited by Dane_in_LA; 01-05-2023 at 09:50 AM..
They went in attempting regime change, they didn't assess their needs properly and used too few troops to overwhelm the country! That is no defense ... it is an illustration of Putin's hubris and poor judgment.
Pretty much this.
What's Russian for "We deeply regret to inform you that your son died because Putin was stupid"?
Dr Michael Clarke reports that the majority of the conscripted Russian soldiers are from the Eastern areas and republics. They have been told Poland has invaded Ukraine and is preparing to invade Russia, so they - the Russians - are fighting Pols.
It's been consistent Russian agitprop from day one that Poland is somehow planning to take over Ukraine. Makes no goddamn sense whatsoever, but - Russians.
They crossed the border without permission. They fired their weapons within the borders of Ukraine, they rounded up civilians who protested their presence and murdered them.
They attempted to assassinate the leadership of Ukraine.
It was an invasion.
These are all acts of war, and in many case also crimes against humanity.
So you can't just make up excuses for them, pretending that their incompetence is part of the plan. They went in attempting regime change, they didn't assess their needs properly and used too few troops to overwhelm the country! That is no defense ... it is an illustration of Putin's hubris and poor judgment.
For Ukraine it is already total war. For context, the Battle of Britain lasted about four months give or take. It scarred the psyche of the British people and hardened them for the long struggle to come. Ukraine has already gone through this sort of mayhem for 11 months with more to come.
The Russian people have not had to endure total war.
Now we have seen Russia lose a great portion of their best hardware, and they need to construct more. Some of their best trained and equipped military units have been shot to pieces and need to be re-constituted. To be done properly none of this can be rushed.
The barrels on the artillery pieces are wearing down. With each firing they become less accurate.
Information has been coming out that Russia has transferred some of it's weapons cache in Belarus out to the Donbas, and Russia is purchasing materials from North Korea. Russia does not have the capacity to produce what it needs at the rate it has been expending.
The Russian people have not had to endure the kind of aerial attacks the Ukrainian people have been experiencing. The Russians have not had their power cut off and have not had their bus stops blown away, and they have not had to uncover mass graves looking for their loved ones ... so there is a ways to go yet before the Russians see "full out war", but their ability to prosecute the war on the fields of Ukraine is clearly already diminishing.
Do you realize how big is Russia?
Absolutely!
As big as half of Asia with an economy the size of Italy. It's biggest exports are raw materials similar to a big empty third world country.
For population Russia has about 147 million people with a negative growth rate, many of whom are ethnic minorities. 8.5 people per square kilometer.
By contrast Ukraine has about 40 million people. 66 people per square kilometer. Good interior lines.
They were going for a decapitation strike and expected at most a civil uprising. The FSB had bribed everybody, or at least told the Kremlin they'd done so.
This is just stupid. You don't cross a border in underforce and then expect concessions at the negotiation table. In what world does that work? And it completely ignores the air and ground based attempt at taking Kyiv, which failed to such a remarkable extent.
It's fun reading your fanfic, but it's disconnected from reality.
Russia's initial actions only fit one pattern: That of a country and an army believing their own most optimistic assumptions. The FSB had bribed the right people, Zelensky would run, the Ukrainians really did want to be a Russian satellite state, the boys would be back in summer. Take Kyiv and then it would just be a matter of pacifying civilians, a job at which the Russian soldier excels.
Listening to your own BS is a cardinal sin in statecraft and warfare.
Putin offered Peaceful alternatives to circumvent the death, destruction, and suffering.
I understand you get all Fangirly over that kinda thing...because that's how malevolent warmongers roll.
But Putin didn't want it to be like that...and I agree with that view..
Putin offered Peaceful alternatives to circumvent the death, destruction, and suffering.
I understand you get all Fangirly over that kinda thing...because that's how malevolent warmongers roll.
But Putin didn't want it to be like that...and I agree with that view..
I like the posts where you at least try to offer something resembling substance quite a lot better.
Anyway, he knows where the border is. There's a peaceful alternative.
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