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in your opinion I suppose.. but if you want to call yourself devine and all knowing and guiding for people in their lives to draw closer to god and jesus and all that.. you probably should have a better record than the catholic church does...
Perhaps your lack of education in Catholic dogma and practice has led you to some false conclusions. The Pope is "Jesus'" representative on earth, not his replacement. The Pope is born with original sin, is human, and is in no way divine as he is mortal. All knowing is something out of the wizard of oz, so you can just put that to rest. The Pope is the shepherd of the flock, he is not God. The infallibility issue only arises on questions of changing dogma, which rarely occurs in a church as stable as this one.
As a huge institution that requires great sacrifice from some, the Pope leads a huge population of people, sinners all, that will fail and disobey, including clergy and supervisors. We hope that this sad behavior has an end, but as it is part of the human condition as we are seeing in the Fundamentalist Mormon Community and the world at large, we have to assume we need to be vigilant in all our institutions to keep people from exploiting the young, the poor, and the helpless.
Last edited by janeannwho; 04-17-2008 at 12:55 PM..
Reason: missed a word
I guess Mr Boise, that if you choose to not to partake the Pope's visit, that is ok.We know you do not like him, so just send an " I cannot attend" card back to the next Catholic event you are invited to and let it go. But let those of us who are enjoying the visit do so. For myself, if the opportunity arises to visit with the leaders of other religions, countries, and cultural group, I will probably be happy to attend if I can.
I, too, would welcome the opportunity to attend. Religious leaders - regardless of religion - have followers. It is helpful to have a dialogue going on w/ religious leaders as well as with political leaders. How can anyone ever hope for peace on this planet w/o listening to what religious leaders have to say?
I, too, would welcome the opportunity to attend. Religious leaders - regardless of religion - have followers. It is helpful to have a dialogue going on w/ religious leaders as well as with political leaders. How can anyone ever hope for peace on this planet w/o listening to what religious leaders have to say?
you get over yourself mate, a murderer and a pedophile can do many good things in their life time as well... all the good things don't overcompensate for all the bad things that have been done... he's still a murderer and a pedophile. That is not saying the pope is all those things but he is head of an organized religion that is... therefore he sucks and I have no respect for him or his institution... now as for followers.. I have all the respect in the world for.. please don't confuse my premis... its not you and me that is the issue... its who's calling the shots and who is responsible for everything that has happened over the years.
I don't remember Pope Benedict being charged with any murders. Care to explain?
In my opinion, you don't like the Pope based on the Catholic Church's view on homosexuality. Fair enough. However, most followers of the Catholic Church hold the same views on homosexuality. Why would you have respect for its followers and not its leader? What makes you respect those that follow Catholicism?
Perhaps your lack of education in Catholic dogma and practice has led you to some false conclusions. The Pope is "Jesus'" representative on earth, not his replacement. The Pope is born with original sin, is human, and is in no way divine as he is mortal. All knowing is something out of the wizard of oz, so you can just put that to rest. The Pope is the shepherd of the flock, he is not God. The infallibility issue only arises on questions of changing dogma, which rarely occurs in a church as stable as this one.
As a huge institution that requires great sacrifice from some, the Pope leads a huge population of people, sinners all, that will fail and disobey, including clergy and supervisors. We hope that this sad behavior has an end, but as it is part of the human condition as we are seeing in the Fundamentalist Mormon Community and the world at large, we have to assume we need to be vigilant in all our institutions to keep people from exploiting the young, the poor, and the helpless.
Very well-stated....thank you for clearing this up. The "infallible thing", as you say, comes along only rarely, and some Popes NEVER get into such a doctrinal 'decision' where infallibility would come into play. Catholics look at The Pope as being a direct "successor" to St. Peter, who was commissioned personally by Jesus to "lead the flock" (after Jesus 'left'), and it's looked on as a 'sacred duty', and given the honor and respect that that would entail.
Beyond THAT, however, it's entirely possible to have a 'mediocre' Pope, one who fails to 'inspire' people, even one wholly capable of lapses in judgement. It IS possible. He's not divine, he 'puts on his pants one leg at a time', etc. He VERY RARELY 'makes' the rules....he interprets them, "carries them out" and urges us to do likewise. The Pope can't 'send anyone to Hell...OR to Heaven'.
The Pope, just like every other human being, is responsible for his own salvation. Having a lot of "spiritual power", he ALSO has a lot that he'll be judged for, and he's acutely aware of that. Sometimes he seems 'out of touch", because his 'focus' is not on worldly politics...or it's not SUPPOSED to be. He's responsible for "urging the membership" toward salvation, not in championing any particular worldly government. He focuses on moral issues, which MOST governments won't touch....and this puts him somewhat 'out of step' with political leaders.
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I don't remember Pope Benedict being charged with any murders. Care to explain?
In my opinion, you don't like the Pope based on the Catholic Church's view on homosexuality. Fair enough. However, most followers of the Catholic Church hold the same views on homosexuality. Why would you have respect for its followers and not its leader? What makes you respect those that follow Catholicism?
homosexuality? I never once referenced that as a reason why I dislike the catholic church...unless you have decided to pigeonhole my entire point of view of the world on what you've managed to dig up in prior threads... I dislike leaders who spoon feed people what to believe..and hinders free thinking
while you want others to be open to your beliefs and catholicism.. and become disgusted with my point of view..you in turn promote the same hate and unacceptance and you just came right out and acknowleged it.
I could really careless, lots of times in discussions here you can get a rise out of people to see what their true colors are and underlying intentions... and it is quite insightful to see the reasons why and how people defend certain things in our society, and have utter contempt for others...
I actually use to date a guy that was catholic so to posters that are getting in a fuss about it.. I am fully aware of most of its beliefs and structures.. Ignorance is a quick word to throw around.... its an easy explaination as to how someone can not somehow see things the way you see it. When in reality sometimes they just disagree.
I certainly don't hate the pope.. I don't know the guy.. I just don't like the tight hold and power he has over the masses of the world. Because it certainly directs the path we go down as a society. Is it good is it bad? thats subjective... but there is truths and logic to some things.. and just because it seems good and warm and fuzzy doesn't make it the best path and good in the long run... nor does it make it truth... My advice to those who are religious and wish to impose your belief structures upon the masses is..... you better be right.. .
If you truely believe in the church.. then that is your own personal right.. and that is what should always be respected. But for me religious leaders represent a center of power that is not given by the people, but rather self appointment or whatever means they want to conjur up. That power i do not have respect for i'm sorry I refuse to acknowlege its importance.. Bringing religions together and all this crap is great and all but my position is--- the reason our society and world is so disconnected intolerant has a lot to do with the practices of these very institutions. It just doesn't make sense.. and for someone that is not religous it just seems hokey and useless to make a spectacle of "hand-stretching across faiths" when they are the very reason we have to even make the effort in the first place..
If you truely believe in the church.. then that is your own personal right.. and that is what should always be respected. But for me religious leaders represent a center of power that is not given by the people, but rather self appointment or whatever means they want to conjur up. That power i do not have respect for i'm sorry I refuse to acknowlege its importance.. Bringing religions together and all this crap is great and all but my position is--- the reason our society and world is so disconnected intolerant has a lot to do with the practices of these very institutions. It just doesn't make sense.. and for someone that is not religous it just seems hokey and useless to make a spectacle of "hand-stretching across faiths" when they are the very reason we have to even make the effort in the first place..
The only power the Pope has is from the people, he is blessed on Earth by God, but if you choose not to listen, there is no power over you. There is not a leader alive who could not be defeated by the communion, or unionization of the people. Most of the fractures within religons comes not from dogma but from economic or political arguments. Almost all the world religons have the "golden rule" as their central tenet and it is probably the best way to live if we can manage to live up to it. Christian, Jewish and Islamic thought spring from the same beginning.
The only power the Pope has is from the people, he is blessed on Earth by God, but if you choose not to listen, there is no power over you. There is not a leader alive who could not be defeated by the communion, or unionization of the people. Most of the fractures within religons comes not from dogma but from economic or political arguments. Almost all the world religons have the "golden rule" as their central tenet and it is probably the best way to live if we can manage to live up to it. Christian, Jewish and Islamic thought spring from the same beginning.
you're right the power the pope has is given to him by the people. Because we have minds to contemplate our own existance and we don't have answers to all of them. So the pope and many others provide people answers that put their minds at ease when it comes to life, death, afterlive, relationships and purpose. That is probably the most valuable thing a person could want in this lif-purpose and explainations as to why things are so. That power is a false power in that they are unable to prove what they are providing people as being truth but rather something to just "believe in" Forming an emotional attachment to that purpose is where the pope and many other religious leaders get their power.. And it is my opinion that its wrong. Just because it has been that way for centuries does not make it right.
There is a direct correlation to religious extremism and quality of life. Many Islamic countries are experiencing religous extremism because for many they come from very poor countries, where that need for purpose and answers is all they have that is valuable in their lives. While in nations that are more educated and better quality of life, tend to de-value the importance of that dogmatic purpose, and find their own purposes in whatever they are doing with their lives. It isn't necessarily an issue of wealth, but more opportunities to explore what life is... Lets not kid ourselves though wealth offers a person in our country a lot more freedoms vs. someone that is just getting by, and there is also a direct correlation to church membership and religious extremism in our own country along those lines.. I don't think it comes down to what's holy and what's not.. its human psychology. These Religious leaders gain their people given power through the use of human psychology and the need for a story and a purpose to life...
so from my point of view... sure they do great things.. provide lots of services.. and seem selfless in many ways.. but just because they do lots of good things doesn't sell many of us on the fact that they are just out to do good all the time and acting in the best interests of humanity... but rather themselves.. and rally support for their cause through the use of human emotional psychology. If someone feels their eternal salvation, and moral acceptance is on the line.. they will certainly side with whatever the church says to do. Afterall nobody wants to go to hell right?
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