Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Nah, you're looking at everything from a typical biased
I guess I could easily say that all of the liberals I know are faux liberals. They enjoy pretending to be warriors for vulnerable groups in an attempt to look good and call themselves open minded.
In the mind of a conservative, freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand.
For us, a freedom that comes at the expense of another is not a freedom.
Liberal=dependent on government and less freedom; plain and simple .Especially when you look at who funds the vast majority of government services a person is dependent on.
Lol. No actually, i am just really saddened that i did not get one intelligent answer. . . . Lots of anti-abortion rhetoric, plus paranoia and assumptions. But Not. One. Intelligent. Answer.
I was (am still am) seriously seeking an intelligent answer without insults, liberal bashing, abortion or gun debates.
Anyone?
Go read some Russel Kirk & get back to us....do your own work if you want to understand conservatism.
Its funny reading how everyone tells the OP to try and understand conservatism better then labels all liberals as X, insults him repeatedly, and then tells him to go research and answer his own question.
The answer is ( from my point of view )
Conservatives have been defined in various ways over the years. Theres no solid definition in my opinion even today as there are various differences between the people who self identify that way. Trying to conflate conservatives with freedoms isn't a attempt to ask the question, both conservatives and other groups will generally tell you they are all about freedom.....but it depends on how you define it. Theres no less then 8 or so different subgroups within conservatives, some more for individual freedoms then others.
Basically your question doesn't have a simple answer really, and appears to be more about an attempt to smear a group.
I can't recall having met a conservative that would ever say they didn't like freedom, but the definition of freedom varies within the group-just as it does within the liberals.
So what sort of freedom are you asking about exactly? Can you be more specific?
Its funny reading how everyone tells the OP to try and understand conservatism better then labels all liberals as X, insults him repeatedly, and then tells him to go research and answer his own question.
The answer is ( from my point of view )
Conservatives have been defined in various ways over the years. Theres no solid definition in my opinion even today as there are various differences between the people who self identify that way. Trying to conflate conservatives with freedoms isn't a attempt to ask the question, both conservatives and other groups will generally tell you they are all about freedom.....but it depends on how you define it. Theres no less then 8 or so different subgroups within conservatives, some more for individual freedoms then others.
Basically your question doesn't have a simple answer really, and appears to be more about an attempt to smear a group.
I can't recall having met a conservative that would ever say they didn't like freedom, but the definition of freedom varies within the group-just as it does within the liberals.
So what sort of freedom are you asking about exactly? Can you be more specific?
Well I think first off you come in with sort of a closed minded perspective, which, as a liberal, may not be the best way to approach the question
I'm a liberal. I agree with you on which freedoms I prize, but I do NOT believe conservatives are anti-freedom. Conservatives just place high priority on freedoms that we don't place priority on (eg gun ownership.) Or in some cases, both sides are arguing for a freedom that by definition takes freedom from the other side. Take abortion for example, you are concerned with the freedom of the mother and they are concerned with the freedom of the fetus. Two competing interests in a zero-sum game means neither side is ever going to be completely happy.
Also when you apply conservatism to government, the only logical inference would actually be that the more conservative (ie constrained/limited) the government is, the more freedoms the populace would have. Surely you see that the bigger the government, the more laws, the less freedom? I'm sure you'd be cheering a law banning all guns, right? I mean you'd be protecting people by getting them off the street!!! Of course conservatives would say you were taking away their right to protect THEMSELVES and make decisions about their own autonomy. Well, that's how conservatives feel about abortion. They'd like to outlaw abortion to protect the millions of people who are murdered a year. Now you'd say they are taking away your right to make a decision about YOURSELF and make decisions about your own autonomy. See the correlation here? I think the problem we liberals have is not minding imposing laws as long as we like those laws Of course, conservatives have this problem too (see abortion) but I think since they tend to be a bit warier of government intervention it's not as endemic in conservative circles.
I think you'd do well to realize being conservative is in no way diametrically opposed to freedom as you seem to think it is. We all, basically care about the same thing (freedom) and just define it differently. Let's not get caught up in battles about who is right and wrong, and instead try to figure out how we can reach middle ground that's tenable to all parties. We all love our country, we should do what we can to unite it, you know?
You raise some valid points, but there's a problem with your list: All you do is put freedom in front of something. That doesn't make it 'freedom.'
I believe everyone should have a right to freedom. And I'm on board with the marijuana and the gay marriage, but why abortion and prostitution?
Let's talk about abortion. I understand the argument pro-abortion bring to the table, and believe me, I don't want to disagree with it... but I do. Just a little. An abortion is the terminate of a pregnancy. I consider that the termination of a life. Some do, some don't. Here's the issue, if someone get's pregnant and they don't want the child, it's just a clump of cells. A few years later, they get pregnant and want to this time; suddenly it's the miracle of life.
I sympathize with victims of sexual assault and do believe abortion can be an option for them, and I'm not even necessarily against it being an option in general. What I'm against is this idea that it's a right. How so?
I won't go any further on the topic as that's not what this is about. The simple fact is that being against abortion does not mean they are against freedom. I'll agree, many modern conservatives have lost their values or rather, simply believe to strongly that their values are better than the values of other people. But is the modern liberal much better? They'd rather take away guns for a little temporary safety than let people have them and just teach them to use them properly (I am not a gun owner, by the way). And who cares if someone's against gay marriage. They have the right to voice that. Who cares if it's idiotic? No where in the constitution does it say idiots aren't allowed to speak.
The modern liberal does not fit the definition of liberal. Liberals are for freedom for everyone, not those they dean worthy. I understand the desire to help the poor, the weak, the minorities; I really do. But forcing people to think a certain way doesn't work. We need to teach tolerance, and this is a two way street. We need Christians tolerant of gay people and secularists tolerant of Christianity. They don't have to agree with gay marriage and we don't have to agree with that stance. But we need to get along and let each other live.
For the most part I agree with your post.
Liberals once attempted to be consistent in their reasoning and tolerant of those who disagreed with them, but that all changed when the hippies of the Sixties faded away.
Roe V. Wade and Carter's blanket pardon of Viet Nam War draft dodgers changed the tone of the discussion since both young men and young women were for the first time given specific permission from the state to violate their most fundamental responsibilities.
Many liberals no longer felt an obligation to explain their reasoning for what was obviously immoral and otherwise unacceptable behavior.
That the state said it was OK became the only justification required for a long list of liberal bad ideas.
Having drifted down this moral ****'s Creek for some four decades, that a young person has obligations to their society and society's most vulnerable members, and this for no other reason than common decency demands it is a completely foreign idea to those raised on the right to not be bothered with such things.
To reframe the question (as people seem to be attacking the question itself) here it is:
Why do (most) conservatives talk of "loving their freedoms" when (most) are against so many "actual freedoms" except for, 1. the second amendment and (from what i'm interpreting) here, 2. the "freedom not pay for things for other people."*
(*This does not seem to be a "freedom to me" but i digress because i merely want the answer to my original question, if there is one.)
I find it hard to believe you didn't get one intelligent answer. Perhaps you weren't looking hard enough?
I'll humor your re-phrased question though.
Your question: why do most conservative claim to love freedom but are against freedoms that aren't within the second amendment or not having to pay for other people's care?
To that I say, could you have a more narrow minded question?
I've been all over the political spectrum. I started a conservative, and had no knowledge of anything. My dad voted Republican and I assumed that's how it had to be. Then I became a liberal because they seemed nicer. Then I discovered socialism because it seems like a great system. Then I started thinking for myself.
I noticed the modern liberal only seems open minded about what a select group of conservatives are very close minded about. Homosexuality is a sin, men and women need to be treated differently, things like that. But the moment someone says something a liberal disagrees with, like say, abortion is wrong, they get labeled with some form of hate speech, like being called sexist. I've rarely heard an argument against abortion that is more focused on a woman not deserving rights than it is on the moral disagreement with the terminate of a pregnancy. But that doesn't stop the 'tolerant.'
To address the second amendment, I'll just keep it simple. How does gun control actually help. You can ban as many guns as you want, but last time I checked, mass murder is already illegal. Is someone who is willing to violate the mass murder law really going to be deterred because the gun they plan on committing said mass murder with is illegal? Does that really make sense?
As for not paying for other people's things, what's wrong with that? Look at Obamacare. I'm not adamantly against the idea of universal healthcare, but from what I've seen, the ACA isn't actually universal. Sure, we're supposed to all be getting the same care, but it's not at the same cost. Young, healthy, and wealthy people are paying more so that poor, sick, and old people can pay less. How is that fair. I'm young and healthy. Why would I have to pay more so people who are sick or old or poor (noting that these conditions aren't my fault) can pay less? That seems unfair, especially considering how screwed young people are anyway with a failure of a school system that teaches force fed obedience and that everyone can be a winner, even though that is not true. Not to mention the mountain of debt I will face for a college education that I am told with be essential for my future. With what money am I expected to pay more for this healthcare?
By the way, what freedoms are conservatives against? And I'm talking voters, not politicians. I get that there are corrupt conservative politicians in it for the money, but don't think for a second that the average liberal politician is actually concerned about the well being of the poor or uneducated. Government's love uneducated people, or rather, thoughtless people. The ideal society for any government is one with people smart enough to do the jobs they're asked to do, but dumb enough to not question why.
I ask again, what rights do conservative want to take away. I'm not talking radicals, I'm talking moderate to centrist conservative, Republicans, and libertarians. I have yet to hear anyone say free speech should be taken away from anyone. I have yet to hear people shouldn't have a fair trial. I have yet to hear that property should be seized.
The liberals do one thing very well. Appearing kind. The liberal cause seems wonderful, and I won't argue, I'm sure the average liberal voter means well, I'm almost certain of that in fact. But the reality of the government is that it can't be trusted. Ever! It's inefficient. Welfare for example makes the assumption that money can solve all the problems poor people have. Last I checked, welfare only does so much. If you don't have to worry about addiction, other health problems, debt or something else, you can maybe get your family some crap of the McDonalds dollar menu to feed your family for a week. But what kind of life is that? Welfare can't solve poverty. You can't funnel enough money into it without either sucking the public dry or sucking other government expenses dry. Who needs a military, we have welfare. Roads? Just use the dirt.
I'm not saying liberals have no importance either. Gay rights activists bring valid points. A woman should be paid a dollar to a man's dollar, and not 77 cents. Poverty does need to be addressed, as do racial and other social issues. But forced tolerance and temporary feel good solutions are not the answer.
Is this intelligent enough or would you only accept it as intelligent if I tell you you're right.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
