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The most religious area of the country is the south and that is the same area where slavery was most abundant. I'm not religious, but from what I understand, being a christian is support to drive your morals, behavior, your entire cultural outlook.
How do you reconcile that with the rampant slavery and jim crow era all the way up until it was legally struck down? The whole thing doesn't make sense and makes me understand religion, or the role religion plays in peoples lives even less.
There are passages in the bible that can be interpreted as supporting slavery. Folks latched on to that. It also should be noted that slavery was a worldwide institution so its practice wasn't unusual. I know this is a bash Christian thread but the abolition movement was born out of Christianity. No such movement ever existed in Judaism or Islam.
Education and widespread literacy are the reasons for Western Enlightenment. Up until the 19th century, the church was still a yoke and a HUGE barrier to enlightenment.
It was only after many western nations divorced the church from their governments and forced religion to compete in the free market of ideas did the church become somewhat more open to enlightenment in the form or science, art, philosophy, etc...
When the church had ALL the power, they abused it. And we have a duty to remember how they behaved when they didn't have to compete in the free market of ideas.
I agree that before the Protestant Reformation Christianity was a impediment to the idea of individual liberty. Yes, the great thing the Protestant revolution did was separate religion and state (well, in some places anyways) When you look at the history of the abolitionist movement up to the Dr. Martin Luther King you find Christian beliefs spurring people on to fight slavery and racism.
What we have to recognize is for the first few thousand years of civilization few argued against the evil of slavery. That the concept that all individuals are entitled to certain basic rights is a relatively new concept. I would say you are off by two centuries. Beginning in the 17th century Christians were the most dominant first against the evil of slavery. The fact that other Christians, along with practically everyone else, dragged their feet on the issue is also true.
One example from history.com:
Quote:
The goal of the abolitionist movement was the immediate emancipation of all
slaves and the end of racial discrimination and segregation. Advocating for
immediate emancipation distinguished abolitionists from more moderate
anti-slavery advocates who argued for gradual emancipation, and from free-soil
activists who sought to restrict slavery to existing areas and prevent its
spread further west. Radical abolitionism was partly fueled by the religious fervor of the Second Great Awakening, which prompted many people to advocate for emancipation on religious grounds. Abolitionist ideas became increasingly prominent in Northern churches and politics beginning in the 1830s, which
contributed to the regional animosity between North and South leading up to the
Civil War.
Check those first two items on the line. You will also find several others on that timeline showing the importance of Christian leaders in the abolitionist movement.
likely for same reasons most the world thought of it h as normal with some being freemen and other salves.no different than class or any other things really through out history.
There are passages in the bible that can be interpreted as supporting slavery. Folks latched on to that. It also should be noted that slavery was a worldwide institution so its practice wasn't unusual. I know this is a bash Christian thread but the abolition movement was born out of Christianity. No such movement ever existed in Judaism or Islam.
Meh...Paine was years ahead of the abolitionist movement, and he thought Christianity and religion overall was a joke.
Paine actually joined a bunch of Quakers in a abolitionist society. Paine had yet to be born when the Mennonites began their fight against slavery.
Yeah, but those aren't mainstream Christian sects. I mean, it's obvious that in the annals of human history, there have always been groups that were anti slavery.
The Quakers and Mennonites had the right idea, sure, but that's far from being emblematic of Christianity overall.
I mean, Ben Franklin was fairly religious and was also anti slavery, but he never ssid that it was wrong based on biblical principles.
That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men... but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.
It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system.... It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory.” The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders “is become the chief of the corner” the real “corner-stone” in our new edifice.
You can make religion support whatever your views are.
Yes, the great thing the Protestant revolution did was separate religion and state (well, in some places anyways)...
The Protestant Reformation did no such thing.
The Protestant Reformation took Catholic Church property and put it in the hands of the wealthy aristocrats that became Protestants. No, there was no "trickle down" effect of wealth or giving that real estate to the poor.
And the monarchs in the Protestant territories became the heads of the Church de facto.
The Protestant Reformation did more to make a "German Church" and an "English Church" as opposed top a Catholic (which is a Greek word that means "Universal") Church.
Separation of church and state began within the United States of America, and that was a "Protestant Revolution" per se. One might claim it was a Masonic Revolution perhaps. I dunno.
Freedom of religion originated long before the birth of the United States. In the West that originated at least with the Edit of Milan under Constantine the Great.
Also, while not Christian, the title "Land of the Free" predates the creation on the United States of America. The word "Thai" means "free person" and the word "Thailand" means "Land of the Free." The Thai's called themselves this to distinguish themselves from their Khmer neighbors that practiced enslavement, whereas no one was enslaved in Thailand under the Thai's.
The Thai's had some epic battles with the Khmer (Cambodians) too.
Quote:
When you look at the history of the abolitionist movement up to the Dr. Martin Luther King you find Christian beliefs spurring people on to fight slavery and racism.
I've read a history book just on the history of Catholicism in the United States. Most German immigrants, most German Catholics to the U.S. where abolitionists. Especially in the Midwest. Catholic Wisconsin was staunchly pro-Union and were largely abolitionist sympathizers (I think the Underground Rail Road ran through Wisconsin). However, Catholic Maryland was very much sympathizers of the Confederate South (even though Maryland ended up supporting the Union).
The Quakers have a good reputation in abolitionism but the Quakers were not all originally against slavery. Hugh Thomas in his book on the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade notes the Quakers owned a slave ship that carried the name the Reformation.
One point I want to make clear here is that most white abolitionist were racist. They believed in white superiority. And they certainly did not want black men marrying their daughters. However, they were against the enslavement of others.
Christians like Martin Luther King certainly fought against slavery and racism. But there were Christians (Catholic and Protestants) that certainly fought to maintain slavery and to justify racism.
I was interested in the history of the Catholic Church in the United States on this subject, so, some years ago I picked up a book on it. Just within Catholicism alone you had a lot of acrimony between the two sides. And I mean between some of the Catholic "intellectuals" in the United States during the 1800s. Not surprisingly, a lot of the Catholics in the U.S. South supported slavery.
With respects to the Civil Rights Movement the Catholic Church was no were near as involved as the Protestant Black Church. The Catholic Bishops of the United States pretty much kept out of the debate and discouraged nuns and priests under them from getting too involved. Nonetheless, a number of priests and nuns became very active in the Civil Rights Movement. Here in Milwaukee Father Groppi was a well known leading figure.
Of Christians, however, it was mostly the pastors and church members of the Protestant Black Church of the South. Up North a lot of Socialists that were atheists (like the Black Panther Party) and the neo-Islamic Group the Nation of Islam.
That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men... but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.
The proper response to this is to say, "Screw the creator and the natural order." We forbid slavery and treat people equally under the law simply because we have decided that it's the right thing to do. The principle of equal treatment does not require actual equality in nature.
There were actually two competing camps within American Christianity regarding how to justify slavery. It was in fact one of the great religious debates of the 18th century. The two groups were called the "Polygenists" and the "Monogenists"
The Monogenists ("one origin") claimed that blacks were being enslaved as a punishment by God resulting from the "Curse of Ham" (more correctly, the "Curse of Canaan") in Genesis 9. Monogenist Christians considered blacks to be of the race of "Ham" or "Hamites," and blamed the curse for the color of their skin and their subservient position to whites.
The Polygenists ("many origin") took a harder line and insisted that blacks were not even human beings, but instead a different species of animal... specifically beasts of the fields as created on the 6th day of Creation Week.
Neither group doubted black inferiority or the morality of slavery. They just had different Biblical rationale for the belief.
I also believe, whatever their view, they felt justified because the NT gives admonition to those who were slaves - Col. 3:22; Col. 4:1; I Tim. 6:1; Titus 2:9; I Peter 2:18, and then, of course, the Book of Philemon is written by Paul to Philemon addressing his runaway slave, Onesimus.
BTW, have you ever read, A Renegade History of the United States by Thaddeus Russell? It's a really good book and discusses slavery quite a bit.
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