Obama supporters should read this — Living the American Dream (lobbyist, lobby)
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So you dispute the analytical results of a large amount of data with an anecdotal case about Marco Rubio?
The data doesn't say that nobody moves out of their income segment, it says that movement, relative to other countries is lower. Walt Frazier, the former basketball player, was a poor Harlem kid who now lives on the upper East side of Manhattan and has a vacation home in the Caribbean. Frazier's case isn't evidence that it's typical for poor Harlem kids to move out of their parent's income group.
You have to be used to this by now. The anecdotal, "Well, this one person did it, so EVERYONE can do it".
So you dispute the analytical results of a large amount of data with an anecdotal case about Marco Rubio?
First of all Rubio is not anecdotal, he is real and his story verifiable. Honestly I don't think there is that many countries where son of poor uneducated immigrants can get so high in social standing...
Second, statistics can be misleading. You know that statistically we all, males and females have approximately one breast. Now, how useful is that statistic?
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Originally Posted by MTAtech
The data doesn't say that nobody moves out of their income segment, it says that movement, relative to other countries is lower. Walt Frazier, the former basketball player, was a poor Harlem kid who now lives on the upper East side of Manhattan and has a vacation home in the Caribbean. Frazier's case isn't evidence that it's typical for poor Harlem kids to move out of their parent's income group.
No it doesn't prove it is typical but it does prove it is possible. Like I said before, none of the industrialized countries have to deal with social issues like a huge uneducated and disfranchised Black population or wave of illegal uneducated immigrants from LatAm and other poor countries.
Just the Blacks with their widespread dependence on welfare and lack of drive to advance are skewing the stats. No, America is still the land of opportunity: show me more countries where children of poor immigrants become attorney and senators!
What are you talking about? If barekly speaking English immigrants can make it how come people who were born here can't?
When was the last you have seen Black taxi-driver in New York?
You keep going on about these great cab driver jobs
Do you know how much Taxi drivers in NYC make?
30k a year in 2010 on average, or $14.74 an hour. Thats below the median wage of someone living in my home city in SE Virginia, and pretty much poverty wages in NYC.
This is not including gas, leasing payments or fees, lost fares, or anything else.
NYC cab drivers might as well be washing dishes, because thats about what they net.
No it doesn't prove it is typical but it does prove it is possible. Like I said before, none of the industrialized countries have to deal with social issues like a huge uneducated and disfranchised Black population or wave of illegal uneducated immigrants from LatAm and other poor countries.
Just the Blacks with their widespread dependence on welfare and lack of drive to advance are skewing the stats. No, America is still the land of opportunity: show me more countries where children of poor immigrants become attorney and senators!
Yeah, its the blacks, its ALL the blacks.
It has nothing to do with unequal access to education, a socio economic system that favors connections, unequal access to medical care, unequal access to resources, profit motivation, insanely huge income disparity, a third world Gini Index......
Im not speaking on the behalf of anyone. To be vital, a thing has to be absolutey neccessary for that thing to exist. Private property is not vital to anything. For most of the human existance, there was no concept of private property, yet man existed somehow.
It is absolutely vital. Accumulation of goods to ensure survival of the offspring is one of the fundamental imperatives of the entire animal kingdom. It's a primal animal drive simply based on our biology.
Psychologically, once you take away people's private property they lose a reason to productive.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
And you know every Roman Catholic?
No but I am one and I know what it means to be Roman Catholic. You either accept that the Pope is infallible or not. If not you are not Roman Catholic. That's a cannon.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Im not using capitalistic terms while talking about a "communist economy". Im using them when talking about a state run capitalism.
State run capitalism? Soviet economy was not based on "supply and demand", there was no concept of "profit". You may call it stare run capitalism yet it is a misnomer. State run capitalism, as you described Soviet economy, never employed the mechanisms and did not enjoy the efficiency of capitalism. That's why it failed.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Thats pattently false, only in a true democracy is the state an expression of the majority.
And what is a true democracy as opposed "not true" democracy? LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
No, there isnt. "Equal" could be used to describe anything from "god given rights" to mental capacity.
No, bud. There is only one definition of equal: being of the same characteristic. Equal does not describe anything, it compares two or more items.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
No, its fact. Capitalism has no use for people with marginal skills, and actually does its best to completely eliminate them.
Yes. Capitalism wants people to improve and become more efficient. Is that bad?
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
All forms of capitalism also end up in a oligarchic plutocracy, where the wealthy corporations own the government, and erect laws to eliminate competition.
Competition being other corporations? So corporations erect laws to hurt other corporations? LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Really? Why is it that nearly every major invention, including almost all gains in medicine, were a result of research by non profits, usually Universities?
And who funded these non-profits and their research? LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Believe it or not, some people have the will to actually improve humanity.
I believe that. Unfortunately not only they are a minority but even among them there is no consensus what "improving humanity" actually means
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
That is not the goal of those obsessed with accumulation. In fact, improving humanity is completely contrary to the goals of the oil and gas industry, for profit medicine, snack food companies, chemical companies....etc etc.
Why not? Even to feed the poor you have to first accumulate the food. Even to help people you have to have resources. Not coincidentally the US is the largest contributor of humanitarian aid in the world
You can't share if you don't have anything, comrade
It is absolutely vital. Accumulation of goods to ensure survival of the offspring is one of the fundamental imperatives of the entire animal kingdom. It's a primal animal drive simply based on our biology.
Psychologically, once you take away people's private property they lose a reason to productive.
No, survival is enough motivation to stay productive. Accumulation to laud it over, or using it to control, others is not vital to anything.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
State run capitalism? Soviet economy was not based on "supply and demand", there was no concept of "profit". You may call it stare run capitalism yet it is a misnomer. State run capitalism, as you described Soviet economy, never employed the mechanisms and did not enjoy the efficiency of capitalism. That's why it failed.
What the hell are you talking about? What does supply and demand have to do with profit? Profit is simply the price something is sold for over the price is cost to produce.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
And what is a true democracy as opposed "not true" democracy? LOL
Many countries call themself "democracies" just like many call themselves "communist", when they really arent.
For instance, the word "democracy" is used in the same sentence with the US, yet, the US is a Republic, and, the founding fathers argued extensively against "mob rule" or "majority rule".
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Originally Posted by rebel12
No, bud. There is only one definition of equal: being of the same characteristic. Equal does not describe anything, it compares two or more items.
Exactly. It describes two or more things. By saying people are not "born equal", that argument undefined without definitive parameters.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Yes. Capitalism wants people to improve and become more efficient. Is that bad?
No, capitalism wants profit. People are just a cost of doing business.
It is absolutely bad.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Competition being other corporations? So corporations erect laws to hurt other corporations? LOL
Yeah, they do. The goal of any individual firm in perfect competition in a free market, is to eliminate all other firms and become a monopoly, which, of course, is counter productive to "free market". The easiest way to do this, is create barriers to entry which are impossible or nearly impossible for new market entrants to overcome. The quickest way to this end, is by controlling the laws. This is why every large coporation has millions of dollars of employees camped out on Capitol Hill.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
And who funded these non-profits and their research? LOL
It wasnt Wyeth-Ayerst or Schering-Plough. They profit from keeping people sick and have zero motivation to come up with solutions to anything.
Same thing with big oil. They actively combat any and all attempts at improving gas mileage, and have went as far as buying out patents for more efficient fueling and burying them, and intimidating leading independent researchers. They are already in bed with Detroit, and own the government, which makes just about any technology that happened to slip through, impossible to implement on a large scale.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Why not? Even to feed the poor you have to first accumulate the food.
OR, you could just let them farm it themselves and cut out the middle man...isnt that novel?
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Even to help people you have to have resources. Not coincidentally the US is the largest contributor of humanitarian aid in the world
That would make sense, since they also are the leading rapist of the world as well.
No, survival is enough motivation to stay productive. Accumulation to laud it over, or using it to control, others is not vital to anything.
No. Survival gives enough motivation to produce the necessary minimum but even survival is often dependent on accumulation, isn't it? The more you accumulate the more you are protected against for instance temporary loss of income, droughts or other unforeseen events... Private property and accumulation is vital, comrade. There is no progress without private property.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
What the hell are you talking about? What does supply and demand have to do with profit? Profit is simply the price something is sold for over the price is cost to produce.
Funny guy And how do you establish what is the "cost to produce" when laws of supply and demand are not allowed to establish equilibrium which we call a "price"?
When there is no market place with its famous invisible hand how do you really know what is the value of labor or materials used to produce anything, comrade? The answer is you don't. I already told you socialism /communism does not even utilize expressions like profit, cost, efficiency.
Socialism and communism are coincidentally utterly inefficient economically. That's another reason they can't win.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Many countries call themself "democracies" just like many call themselves "communist", when they really arent.
Doesn't matter what they call themselves.. We know which countries are democracies and which not...
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
For instance, the word "democracy" is used in the same sentence with the US, yet, the US is a Republic, and, the founding fathers argued extensively against "mob rule" or "majority rule".
They could argue all they want yet democracy is a tyranny of the majority either you like it or not.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Exactly. It describes two or more things.
No. LOL. The word equal does not describe anything. When I say that two pencils are of equal lenght do you have any idea what length they are. Equal compares thing.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
By saying people are not "born equal", that argument undefined without definitive parameters.
Again. No. LOL. If the argument is entered without parameters it simply means that people are not equal based on any given criteria and cumulatively on all of them.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
No, capitalism wants profit. People are just a cost of doing business.
It is absolutely bad.
I bet this is what they teach in kindergartens in Cuba and you too got it all wrong.
People are the most important part of capitalism, they are both producers and consumers of goods.
Without people them the whole system collapses. I don't klnow who told you that people in acpitalism are a cost. Maybe you meant labor? LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Yeah, they do. The goal of any individual firm in perfect competition in a free market, is to eliminate all other firms and become a monopoly, which, of course, is counter productive to "free market". The easiest way to do this, is create barriers to entry which are impossible or nearly impossible for new market entrants to overcome. The quickest way to this end, is by controlling the laws. This is why every large coporation has millions of dollars of employees camped out on Capitol Hill.
That's why we have laws and regulations which ensure we don't have monopolies and other anti-market contraptions.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
It wasnt Wyeth-Ayerst or Schering-Plough. They profit from keeping people sick and have zero motivation to come up with solutions to anything.
Maybe it wasn't. But someone nevertheless paid for the non-profits to operate and they were most likely rich individuals and.... corporations. Science is not a hobby, comrade LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Same thing with big oil. They actively combat any and all attempts at improving gas mileage, and have went as far as buying out patents for more efficient fueling and burying them, and intimidating leading independent researchers. They are already in bed with Detroit, and own the government, which makes just about any technology that happened to slip through, impossible to implement on a large scale.
Same thing with all the other stuff you have no clue about
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
OR, you could just let them farm it themselves and cut out the middle man...isnt that novel?
Yeah especially in the middle of the desert. LOL
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
That would make sense, since they also are the leading rapist of the world as well.
Why do you hate this country so much? Nobody is forcing you to live here.
You keep going on about these great cab driver jobs
Do you know how much Taxi drivers in NYC make?
30k a year in 2010 on average, or $14.74 an hour. Thats below the median wage of someone living in my home city in SE Virginia, and pretty much poverty wages in NYC.
This is not including gas, leasing payments or fees, lost fares, or anything else.
NYC cab drivers might as well be washing dishes, because thats about what they net.
Taxi drivers are tip employees, buddy. They make more than you do - they just report less
It has nothing to do with unequal access to education, a socio economic system that favors connections, unequal access to medical care, unequal access to resources, profit motivation, insanely huge income disparity, a third world Gini Index......
No, it's not all the Blacks yet the Black population skews the stats. Many of them are dependent of welfare (for instance famous welfare mothers) and like it this way. They are not eager to move up the ladder, connections or not...
In this country the Black population with its grave economic situation and crime is a major social issue. France, England, Japan does not have that problem.
Yes it is vital. Survival is often dependent on accumulation, isn't it? The more you accumulate the more you are protected against for instance temporary loss of income, doughts or other unforeseen events... Private property and accumulation is vital, comrade.
Survival is never dependent on accumulation of wealth. One can store thousands of pounds of apples or beef without owning the land the beef is on, or the trees are growing.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Funny guy And how do you establish what is the "cost to produce" when laws of supply and demand are not allowed to establish equilibrium which we call a "price"?
Profit has absolutely nothing to do with the pricing model at all. They are two completely independent concepts. Price can be established through the laws of supply and demand with out profit being a result.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
When there is no market place with its famous invisible hand how do you really know what is the value of labor or materials used to produce anything, comrade?
Why is there no market place? Who established that rule?
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Originally Posted by rebel12
The answer is you don't. I already told you socialism /communism does not even utilize expressions like profit, cost, efficiency.
Ok, first, communism is not a "slash" of socialism.
Second, thats a load of crap. Even when collectivized, an industry or shop has inputs from another industry/shop, which would become costs. Even by nationalization, you would never eliminate those costs, because youd have to pay some form of wages to the worker.
The reason why communism has no use for the term profit, is because Marxism uses the labor value concept, which explains that "profit" in a capitalist sense, is actually stolen labor value, which should be returned to the workers.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Socialism and communism are coincidentally utterly inefficient economically. That's another reason they can't win.
What makes communism, in theory, more inefficient than capitalism? On the contrary, I would argue its more efficient, since profit motivation wouldnt consistantly stand in the way of progress.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Doesn't matter what they call themselves.. We know which countries are democracies and which not...
So why did you need an explanation?
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Originally Posted by rebel12
They could argue all they want yet democracy is a tyranny of the majority either you like it or not.
Which is exactly why they wanted a Republic instead of a Democracy. This is why we are ruled by the oligarchic plutocracy, the "1%" if you will, while the peasants toil with no hope of ever participating in leadership.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
No. LOL. The word equal does not describe anything. When I say that two pencils are of equal lenght do you have any idea what length they are. Equal compares thing.
You have a serious reading comprehension problem, so, I will try to explain this a different way.
In the above, I have bolded a piece of your statement. Notice, how you made the distinctive qualifier "of equal length". You did not say, two pencils are equal, which could mean, led color or shade, length, thickness, body color, body material, brand name, quality or any number of things, or all of the things. You made it very clear WHAT you were comparing.
In your original statement you said "all people are not born equal". You made no definition as to the qualifier you were comparing their equivalency on.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Again. No. LOL. If the argument is entered without parameters it simply means that people are not equal based on any given criteria and cumulatively on all of them.
Well then, your statement is flat out wrong. Every single US Citizen is equal under the intent of the law. There is a given criteria right there.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
I bet this is what they teach in kindergartens in Cuba and you too got it all wrong.
People are the most important part of capitalism, they are both producers and consumers of goods.
Without people them the whole system collapses. I don't klnow who told you that people in acpitalism are a cost. Maybe you meant labor? LOL
Wow, people are the most important piece of capitalism? Then, why exactly are they laid off or their jobs automated at every opportunity? Why do firms in capitalism not seem to care about their ability to be consumers as they are being laid off?
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Originally Posted by rebel12
That's why we have laws and regulations which ensure we don't have monopolies and other anti-market contraptions.
Oh, you mean, like Glass-Steagall, which got repealed at the request of big bank lobbyist? Or, maybe the toothless Dodd-Frank legislation which was completely gutted before it even saw the light of day?
Guess laws and regulations dont really matter when the banksters and CEOs are writing them.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Maybe it wasn't. But someone nevertheless paid for the non-profits to operate which you tend to forget, comrade. It's not a hobby, comrade LOL
What does this have to do with anything? Your argument was that nobody does anything for free. My argument is, the only time anything of value actually gets done is when someone who isnt motivated by profit does it.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Same thing with all the other stuff you have no clue about
Why dont you actually do some research. Might open your eyes. Shell and Exxon are in possession of dozens of fuel system patents that theyve intentionally buried.
Good gas mileage and efficient cars are bad for business.
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Originally Posted by rebel12
Yeah especially in the middle of the desert. LOL
Because the world has so little arable land that people would be forced to live in the desert......oh wait, the world has 16 million square miles of agricultural land which is far more than enough for every person to farm enough to live.....
Maybe, if we started eliminating all of the intentional waste capitalism encourages to prop up commodity prices.......
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Why do you hate this country so much? Nobody is forcing you to live here.
Why dont you leave?
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