Backwards in Tennessee, Creationism Creeps Into Classrooms (gasoline, weapons, Austin)
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What do you mean I have no evidence for my claim? You asked me what I wanted taught in school - I told you. Again you are making assumptions about what I claim. Let me repeat it once again. Teach biology - describe life and its processes without discussing its origins. Do you deny that there is scientific evidence that life exists and functions in certain ways. I most certainly hope you aren't saying that. If you are - all i can say is...WOW!
That is like teaching chemistry without teaching Atomic theory. Or teaching general physics without teaching the theories of special or general relativity.
Evolution is the central thread that unifies biology the way atomic theory unifies chemistry.
Let's hypothetically consider two foreign tourists vacationing in America. They stop off in S. Dakota, and of course, take the Mt. Rushmore tour:
Upon first gaze at this wondrous spectacle carved out of the side of a massive rock formation .... the first tourist exclaims "Wow, who created this magnificent monument with such amazingly detailed faces?" Later, the second tourist arrives and exclaims: "Wow, isn't mother nature amazing ... it's almost unbelievable that wind and water erosion could combine to produce such a detailed set of faces that actually look exactly like famous American presidents! What a coincidence, huh?"
My suggestion is .... don't be that last guy. Be the first guy, because everything that one needs in order to differentiate between a random act of nature and a deliberate act producing a designed outcome is right there in George Washington's face starring back at you.
By the same token, that basic process holds true even more so when looking at the infinitely more complex structure of a living cell, including it's DNA code that literally is a biological programming language that contains the instructions for constructing living matter. And, in my humble opinion, that took a bit more design planning and forethought than it took to carve away rock with a jackhammer, creating the faces on Mt. Rushmore ... not to diminish one bit, the amazing work of the artist who created that sculpture.
The Old Man of the Mountain before erosion and other natural processes smoothed him out.
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
My point is that sometimes things can SEEM designed because we want to see the face in the mountain or we want to think the universe was created for US. Unfortunately, there is nothing that has ever been shown that could NOT have arisen via natural processes, exactly like the Old Man in the Mountain. Which looks not that different than Mt Rushmore.
I mean if life were really "intelligently" designed, why isnt both the intelligence and the design self evident? It is self evident in Mt Rushmore correct? Why would an omnipotent designer make "dumb" mistakes, like designing sperm for human males that has to be kept at a cooler temperature than the body? Why not just design sperm that can survive at body temperature? Why not just lower body temperature?
Because it is clear that for many organisms, like human males, multiple traits were being selected for and we are conglomeration of that inherent "compromise" of conflicting traits. Higher body temperature makes the survival of the individual more likely, lower temperature of sperm makes continuation of the genome more likely. Hence the external testicles, a compromise is ever there was one, and one that makes the individual more vulnerable than internal ones would. The lists of lack of either intelligence and/or design are endless in biology. So unless you are going to resort to the religious answer "god works in mysterious ways" the lack of intelligence or design in any organism kills ID dead in the water.
Please note that my response is not to be misconstrued as associating myself with, or promoting the legitimacy of a literal interpretation of "Biblical Creationism", as it seems each and every one of you Darwinian evolved primates can't seem to help yourselves from automatically assuming. Bear in mind that logic would conclude that I probably understand a little more about what I believe than you could ever ascertain through pure speculation and biased assumptions.
Also note that the following is not a video of the Pope addressing the crowds at the Vatican on Easter Sunday, but is a scientific tour inside a living cell:
Now, at this point, if you've actually bothered to watch the video, and a few of those complex cells have taken up residence between your ears, and they are functioning properly, a few rational thoughts might spring into existence. And from a purely subjective standpoint, free of any bias or preconceived notions, one of those thoughts should be to evaluate the mathematical probability of such complexity emerging by the random acts of nature mixing inert elements together and forming living matter out of non living chemicals, purely by chance.
This really is just a very basic form of intelligence which also adheres to basic scientific methods which calls upon observation and analysis to formulate an initial theory. And though I've used this analogy before, it's applicability here best demonstrates the process, so I'll use it again.
Let's hypothetically consider two foreign tourists vacationing in America. They stop off in S. Dakota, and of course, take the Mt. Rushmore tour:
Upon first gaze at this wondrous spectacle carved out of the side of a massive rock formation .... the first tourist exclaims "Wow, who created this magnificent monument with such amazingly detailed faces?" Later, the second tourist arrives and exclaims: "Wow, isn't mother nature amazing ... it's almost unbelievable that wind and water erosion could combine to produce such a detailed set of faces that actually look exactly like famous American presidents! What a coincidence, huh?"
My suggestion is .... don't be that last guy. Be the first guy, because everything that one needs in order to differentiate between a random act of nature and a deliberate act producing a designed outcome is right there in George Washington's face starring back at you.
By the same token, that basic process holds true even more so when looking at the infinitely more complex structure of a living cell, including it's DNA code that literally is a biological programming language that contains the instructions for constructing living matter. And, in my humble opinion, that took a bit more design planning and forethought than it took to carve away rock with a jackhammer, creating the faces on Mt. Rushmore ... not to diminish one bit, the amazing work of the artist who created that sculpture.
So for all of you who keep hawing about "Science" and "evidence" ... try using rational thought and critical analysis yourselves, and stop trying to use straw men arguments like the "6 day creation", and the "white bearded man floating in the clouds" as some form of support for your own equally inane beliefs and lack of logic, exemplified by believing that mother nature blindly grabbed a few raw elements, tossed them all into her "Warring Blender" ... poured the mixture out ... and a couple of random lightening strikes and a few Million years later ... life popped into existence, quite accidentally. Because if you really believe that nonsense, you have no right to laugh at anyone else's beliefs.
The only rational conclusion regarding this Evolution versus Creation debate is that we do not have the evidence necessary to prove how life came into existence, initially. We can only speculate. But just like the first tourist in the analogy above, we need not be schooled in US history and geology, or know the story and the name of the artist who sculpted Mt. Rushmore, to immediately recognize that it could not have been a random outcome of natural processes. It was clearly designed, with all of design's telltale features of artificiality (the detailed faces) clearly evident.
The even greater complexity of living cells and DNA clearly represent at least an equivalent level of evidence of purposeful design, in order to conclude they are not the products a of random action. And that basic conclusion is not dependent upon answering the questions of who, what, when, where and how. All those questions may be intriguing, but are not prerequisites to forming the initial assessment.
The very glaring problem with this "either it's evolution - or creation" argument seems to totally ignore the more plausible scenario of a combination of both evolution AND intelligent design as being the answer neither side can achieve on it's own.
Clearly there are "evolutionary" processes that can be observed, showing changes over vast periods of time, as well as rather rapid changes, as well as no changes at all. Evolutionists simply commit the error of attempting to explain EVERYTHING from the perspective of natural evolution, while rejecting intelligent design out of hand. In predictable response, those that recognize the intelligent design evidence that is clearly there, choose to counter the evolutionists by dismissing observable evolutionary evidence entirely.
Both sides are equally guilty of embracing dogma, rather than science AND common sense observation.
Soooo right then, you have no evidence for ID (creation). All you can do is fall back on lame attempts to discredit evolution. Evidence is king, and you have none.
Aside from the fact that you don't seem to have found much to comment on, specifically relating to my post ... sounds to me like you don't believe human beings have actually "evolved" very much at all, compared to our ape ancestors who couldn't have been any worse than how you describe modern humans? I guess evolution only deals with physical and cosmetic change, but does nothing insofar as evolution of intelligence?
Be that as it may, I'm sad for you that you should have such a self loathing hatred for yourself and your own species, unless of course you have extended yourself a special exemption from those charges? But even though none of what you claim can be denied to occur far too frequently ... if we took only your testimony into account, ALL human beings would be a worthless scourge with no hope of redemption, with the possible exception of yourself.
But that's just not the reality at all. There are far more good people and good deeds being done every second of every minute of every hour of every day, than there are bad .... just nobody shines a spotlight on those things. Though I will admit that it seems that bad behavior is growing in volumes unseen before in my lifetime, I think much of that is a direct reflection of people who embrace your mindset. Self loathing, God hating, moral relativists that promote the idea that we are simply evolutionary accidents of nature, having no real purpose or value. Just cosmetically, but not intellectually evolved animals. And the more people view themselves as animals, the more animal like you can expect them to behave. Since moral values of honestly and kindness and decency are so outdated in the minds of folks of your ilk, why would you complain of their absence, let alone condemn? Seems to me, you should be rejoicing in the fact that the universe is giving you the exact experience you've called forth.
And there is little doubt that you're a global warmist, and pro abortion type too, because that is part and parcel of the greater sickness you suffer. A self loathing, defeatist mentality, who embraces hate, and glorifies death. To some, there is a rose, and to others, just thorns. I'm pretty sure which one describes you.
Unfortunately, you'll surely find exactly what you expect to find, because all of it is there, the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly ... depending solely on what you focus your attention on.
Yes indeed, at any given time you might find someone dying of thirst in the desert ... another drowning in the ocean ... while also finding a large group of others wiggling their toes in the sand, watching the waves break on the beach, sipping an ice cold tasty beverage.
Life can be either a beach or a B****. It's a personal choice that no one else can make for you, except you.
Gee, you're not getting it, not surprising though. If this God created the universe, don't you think that you are being a bit presumptuous to imagine that this is the only planet that can sustain life? Why would it be so difficult to believe that there are entities that are far more evolved than the inhabitants of this tiny world? I recognize that there is massive hypocrisy within groups that claim to be religious as to how they relate to and treat the planet...the planet that supposedly their God created.
Don't put words in my mouth...btw. Where did I say that there are not people that do good deeds? Unfortunately, some people that attempt to do good deeds are called tree huggers or bleeding hearts...no? Where did I say people are animals, although some do act that way. You are judging me and yet you claim to be of a religious ilk. That's enough proof of your lack of humility and your self righteous hypocrisy.
As for global warming deniers, here's a quote from someone that you so called religious types could learn a thing or two from... "Talk of heaven! ye disgrace earth."
You know even the vatican has addressed the possibiltiy of life on other planets.
Well at least he finally admitted to his religious and political agenda.
Really? Where did I do that? Oh ... it must be that dirty word "morality" ? Is that it? I'm sure that's what you are "reacting" to. Well now, that seems to be saying a lot more about you than it says about me.
To be perfectly blunt, let me correct you by informing you that I don't need religion to teach or guide me with lessons about morality, and I certainly wouldn't expect to find any role models for that purpose in "politics". No, thankfully, I'm perfectly capable of handling the issues of right and wrong all by myself, largely due to the lessons and ideals that were instilled in me by my grand parents and parents, who collectively spent far more time enjoying life, playing guitars and drinking, than they ever did attending Church, or reading a Bible.
Maybe you were not so fortunate, but don't despair, it's really pretty simple stuff ... and anyone can do it. Just don't be a hater. Treat others the same way you'd want them to treat you, even when others don't reciprocate ...because they are the ones that need lessons in good behavior and kindness more than anyone else. Don't steal or lie ... not because some book or some preacher tells you you shouldn't ... but because you should know that's wrong without being told. You can feel the wrongness of doing wrong ... because it's inside of you, not outside. Your conscience is the big clue to this truth.
Don't be an evil selfish arse, because nobody likes those kinds of people, including themselves. Be quick to offer an hand to others, and slow to point your finger. Help that stranger in need if you can ... because you never know when that unexpected favor will come back to you just when you need it.
At the end of the day, if you live your life this way, it will be easier to see the goodness in the world, because like attracts like, and goodness seeks to surround itself in goodness. It's a metaphysical, energetic, magnetic thing, not a religious thing.
Try it. It's much better than living your life under the ridiculous and self defeating idea that morality is a dirty word, and right and wrong are outdated principles. Such things never go out of style ... only people do.
Originally Posted by sickofnyc
The fact is...humans are a bit presumptuous to think that we are these perfect lifeforms. Yes, created in the image of type of superior entity. Sure we are . We kill, destroy, pollute, rape, steal, lie, cheat, are ruled by greed and self-serving manipulation, abuse other species of life, etc. Tell me...what kind of God would produce such a failed experiment and say that it was created in his image?
First of all; you do not know the difference between image and behavior
It's God fault!! THAT .. ..is the extent of your limited mindset. Satan has one purpose - to destroy everything God made.
Many scholars firmly believe that in the book of Genesis - there was a great war; that occurred between verse one and verse two.
all of those negative behavior patterns you mentioned are the fruit of satan!
Satan is the FATHER of all LIES - HIS ONE AGENDA - Steal - kill & destroy.
so you come along and slap God in the face and blame HIM!?????
By definition, yes. Everything is God's fault. Even Satan is God's fault.
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