Confederate Flag..Why or Why Not? (generation, stereotypes, education, Maine)
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So if the South were simply DEFENDING their territory, wouldn't that make the NORTH the aggressors?
Even your own post notes that the NORTH invaded the South, so how could the SOUTH be the aggressors?
Did you realize that Virginia, when they became a part of the union, the United States of America, did so with the provision that they could secede, 1 of 3 states that did so?
*Grins* One can always count on good ol' "Boompa" to trot out that old tired and disproven canard about treason and "taking up arms" agains the United States, and such.
Which is not big deal, really. He simply doesn't believe, it appears, in the basic principle the American Revolution was fought over. That is: Government derives its powers from the consent of the governed. And, also, that a Union is no longer a union in the proper sense if it must be held together by armed force.
Ah the litany of excuses for slavery and why I don't have to be a good American. We still are paying the price for not haveing dealt with the traitors then. I see little difference between a traitor then and the one just killed by a predator drone
Ah the litany of excuses for slavery and why I don't have to be a good American. We still are paying the price for not haveing dealt with the traitors then.
I doubt you have read more on the topic than I have.
I didn't say I have. But which of us has read more books in terms of sheer volumes makes no difference unless we can both back up our cases. And? History is not an objective subject. Reasonable people can interpet the same concrete facts and come to different conclusions.
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Confederates were traitors to the United States who waged a war of treason and aggression. Their actions are nothing to be proud of.
First of all, let me kill that sacred goose of northern apologists. The "United States" as we think of it today, did not exist in 1861. In fact, it was referred to, in those days, as "these united states", reflecting the fact that each had been recognized beforehand, by the Treaty of Paris, as individual entities. Soveriegn states.
The Southern states, in seceding, did nothing much different than what the British colonies (which later became the 13 original states) had done. That is, declared their independence.
In doing so, the South only wanted seperation from the northern states, not from the principles of the original union. That "United States" thing is just a red-herring. The northern states kept the name only by default.
No treason was commited (and northern leaders admitted such) and there was no agression to it. The South had no plans to invade the north, overthrow the government they remained part of, nor do anything but go their own way in peace. In fact, they offered to negotiate a mutually beneficial economic and defense alliance and open up the Mississippi River for free trade and navigation. No aggresion at all. The South only defended itself when attacked.
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By the way, my great great grandfather wore the gray and fought for North Carolina. I'm not ashamed of him. He did what he thought had to be done to protect his home from northern invaders. However, he was wrong. Those of you who cling to the Confederate flag are like people who love the smell of their own farts.
I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. We are an historical and geneological group and have members from all walks of life and races and religions. Thus, I honor your great-great-grandfathers service.
But something to keep in mind? You say you are not ashamed of your g-g-grandfather, but use such high school type language as fart smelling to refer to those who take pride in their Southern heritage?
Well, ok, if that is the way you feel about it. Consider though that your grandfather is not alive to speak up for himself as to why he did what he did. It is easy for you to say he was "wrong". It is not possible for him to say why he didnt think he was.
Bottom line: Would he be proud of you, if he were alive today?
I hope the day will never come that my grandsons will be ashamed to own that I was a Confederate Soldier. -Pvt. A. Y. Handy, 32nd Texas Cavalry, C.S.A.
LOL Hell, Scotty, he can't and he won't. Instead, he spouts the same rote stuff about "treason" and the same nonesense he just did.
I don't really even bother replying to him, personally, anymore, I mean, I have some friends on line who take a STRONG pro-North position. I don't agree with them, and it leads to some heated arguments. But in the end, I can very much respect that they at least back up what they say with facts as they see them.
But with "Boom-pa"? It is never anything but a broken record. Whether he does it out of a sense of just being contrary, or simple historical single-mindedness? I don't know or care. But that is what it is. Heck, go back on look at the totality of his posts on the subject over the years. It comes down to a parrot squawking" Treason, treason..." and etc.
He can't explain the nonesense for the simple reason it IS nonsense! So? Don't bother with the guy, is my well-intended advise, based on past experience. If one is going to discuss/debate the issue, then save it for those who at least put some thought and real facts into their opposing viewpoints!
I didn't say I have. But which of us has read more books in terms of sheer volumes makes no difference unless we can both back up our cases. And? History is not an objective subject. Reasonable people can interpet the same concrete facts and come to different conclusions.
First of all, let me kill that sacred goose of northern apologists. The "United States" as we think of it today, did not exist in 1861. In fact, it was referred to, in those days, as "these united states", reflecting the fact that each had been recognized beforehand, by the Treaty of Paris, as individual entities. Soveriegn states.
The Southern states, in seceding, did nothing much different than what the British colonies (which later became the 13 original states) had done. That is, declared their independence.
In doing so, the South only wanted seperation from the northern states, not from the principles of the original union. That "United States" thing is just a red-herring. The northern states kept the name only by default.
No treason was commited (and northern leaders admitted such) and there was no agression to it. The South had no plans to invade the north, overthrow the government they remained part of, nor do anything but go their own way in peace. In fact, they offered to negotiate a mutually beneficial economic and defense alliance and open up the Mississippi River for free trade and navigation. No aggresion at all. The South only defended itself when attacked.
I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. We are an historical and geneological group and have members from all walks of life and races and religions. Thus, I honor your great-great-grandfathers service.
But something to keep in mind? You say you are not ashamed of your g-g-grandfather, but use such high school type language as fart smelling to refer to those who take pride in their Southern heritage?
Well, ok, if that is the way you feel about it. Consider though that your grandfather is not alive to speak up for himself as to why he did what he did. It is easy for you to say he was "wrong". It is not possible for him to say why he didnt think he was.
Bottom line: Would he be proud of you, if he were alive today?
I hope the day will never come that my grandsons will be ashamed to own that I was a Confederate Soldier. -Pvt. A. Y. Handy, 32nd Texas Cavalry, C.S.A.
Very good post, but I doubt it will get through to the ignorant.
So if the South were simply DEFENDING their territory, wouldn't that make the NORTH the aggressors?
Even your own post notes that the NORTH invaded the South, so how could the SOUTH be the aggressors?
Did you realize that Virginia, when they became a part of the union, the United States of America, did so with the provision that they could secede, 1 of 3 states that did so?
I think you need more study, and comprehension.
Darkatt !!! ... Precisely !
Indeed ... It be called the "War Of Northern Aggression" by the good folks" Way, Way Up Here On The Old East Coast" !
Yep ! ... The "Yankees" sho did invade the C.S.A.... Case Closed !
Y'all Has Ah Real Nice Day Now ... Ya Hear !!! Old Sgt. Lamar
P.S. ... Be Proud To Fly The Beautiful Flag Of The C.S.A. along with the Grand American Flag !!! Two Great Flags Indeed !
I think its really silly for people to think the way you do. But I guess in some ways you are right, it is our disdain for Democrats that made us decide to fly the confederate flag. and of course we are not from the south
It is possible that some of your Illinois Republican neighbors may have taken offense. A lot of their ancestors died in that war, fighting the side that flew that flag.
I am a northerner (born in NY, lives in PA) but I was never offended or put out by the flag of the Confederate States ... someone earlier pointed out the popular one is the battle ensign used by Gen. P. G. T. Beauregard - commonly called "The Southern Cross" (you know, the red one with the blue and white St. Andrew's cross with the stars on it) and not the more official flags such as "The Stars And Bars" and the "The Stainless Banner."
Years ago I was a little surprised to see the popularity of Confederate flags here in PA and other northern states with bikers and others who see it as a symbol that is in opposition to the US federal government. Although I do not share those views, it is fine with me if they want to fly it. In fact, last month I was taking a drive to Cape May, New Jersey and there were some bikers with Confederate flags on their bikes. I suppose African-Americans can view it as a racist thing, but I do not subscribe to that theory; it's not like a Neo-Nazi using the Swastika ... not the same thing at all, I believe.
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" Counted 14 C.S.A. Flags Ah Flyin Way, Way Up Here Today" ... While Out Ah Puttin On Me Bike !
