Pirates Crow Eating Thread (I hear crow is delicious) (Washington: college, calculation)

[JimboPGH]

What is it about this team, specifically, from a baseball perspective, that you find flukey?

[erieguy]

Just as you said, "undervalued". They find cheap players year in and year out and until last year when they laid an egg and this year when everything they've thrown at the wall has stuck, they've been the laughing stock of the league. Throwing darts at cheap players isn't going to continue to work.

If 1 winning year helps you to erase 20 bad ones, congrats. If it continues in the upcoming years it will be great but I'll play the odds and bet against it.

Speaking of betting, since you're so sure this team is in it for the long haul, you can always put your money where your mouth is when the Vegas line comes out next year. I'm betting you're not that confident, but if so I look forward to seeing a pic of the betting ticket. You can bet as easily as them winning over or under a certain amount of games. Sounds like a no brainer to make a bunch of money and prove your theory.

[JimboPGH]

Originally Posted by gortonator

JimboPGH - it's not worth it!!

Go Bucs

C'mon, I'm a Bucs fan of the Lost Generation, I live to bang my head against the wall!

[greg42]

Originally Posted by erieguy

You're obviously in belief that this team is on the rise and 1 winning season in 20 in your eyes is as good as gold.

Every rise from the basement has to START with 1 winning season. Isn't that obvious?

You're counting back 20 years as if specifically all 20 mean something to the current state of the team. But there is nothing in ownership, management, etc. that is continuous across all 20 of those years. Why not count further? Or fewer? Ownership changed in 2007 and in 1996, and before that in 1985 so there is no sale that coincides with the beginning of the 20-year slide, and the entire 20 years is not on the heads of the current regime, regardless of what we may think of them in general.

The current regime starts with the 2007 season. There is evidence that changes put in place beginning then have led systematically to the team we have this season. Heck, after the last two I wouldn't have believed it myself. I am admittedly a really casual baseball watcher. It's not something I've followed intently. But people I know and respect who DO know baseball have correctly predicted that this season would be unlike the last couple.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, that is true. And since you have posted them on an open internet forum, we are entitled to pick them apart when they appear to have no rational basis.

We won't really know who is right for several years. I'm sure if next year is a losing season you'll be gloating about how you are right, but what we're looking at here is timelines that span multiple seasons. You'll only be right if we can see several losing seasons in a row after this one.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by erieguy

The made almost 30 million in 07-08. They're one of the most profitible teams every year. They'll also be receiving 25 million just in tv money alone. Bet they don't put it into talent.

Don't know but they better keep drafting right or it'll be 20 more years.

Nutting is "too rational" to be a consistent winner, according to former minority owner.

Thought I'd dredge up that article from last Spring. Some interesting comments in there, but none that would indicate Nutting is pocketing millions. Appears he puts pretty much everything back into the team, minus what the other minority owners demand (as in the infamous episode in 2008 when Nutting paid the minority owners $20 million off the top so they could pay their taxes).

So yes, they made around $15 million in both 2007 and 2008. And they publicly accounted for where all that money was going, whether one agrees with that or not. The numbers added up. And as we now know, that indeed was an expensive proprietary data system that Nutting bought back in 2008. With Dan Fox at the helm of that expensive database, that system got the Bucs to the playoffs.

Nutting will never be Mark Cuban. He's going to need GMs like Huntington to continue to have years where a Liriano and Melancon can be added for reasonable cost and overproduce for the value and not years where Aki Ikwamura, Erik Bedard and Matt Diaz all underproduce. That'll be a tough task. But there's a core here for a few years - with Taillon, Polanco, et.al. coming up behind. I think the Bucs are in pretty good shape to not be cellar dwellers for a few years.

I spend a lot of time in CT listening to NYC sports radio. Appears to the media there that the Yankees and Brian Cashman could learn a few things from Nutting and Huntington as it applies to expensive free agents. Not to mention the Mets.

[erieguy]

Paying down the debt, paying down the debt, paying down the debt. He's a marketing genius and a very wise businessman.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by erieguy

A real sports franchise with ownership that wants to win are evident with the Penguins and Steelers. Waiting 20 years wouldn't be an issue. With the Nuttings, they could care less. Ownership with a REAL desire to win wouldn't have anybody waiting more than a few years to "feel good".

I'll grant you the Penguins in this argument. They've acquired top picks, signed high-priced stars and have done very well in a division where there is a lot of other talent and savvy management teams.

The Steelers? Not so much. IMO, the Steelers "success" post-Noll is less due to competence and "REAL desire to win" and more due to the happy circumstance that for most of the past 2-3 decades, most of the competition in their division has been highly incompetent, with the notable exception of the recent Ravens teams.

The Steelers are the ones who will be looking up in the standings at several teams for the next 2-5 years.

[erieguy]

Yeah, they're arguably the most successful organization in sports history. How many super bowls/appearances "post Noll"? Theyre due for a few bad years. The Pirates having been sucking hind teet for 20. When they win another World Series or 2 for that matter, then they may be able to be talked about with the success of the Steelers.

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by sskink

I'll grant you the Penguins in this argument. They've acquired top picks, signed high-priced stars and have done very well in a division where there is a lot of other talent and savvy management teams.

The Steelers? Not so much. IMO, the Steelers "success" post-Noll is less due to competence and "REAL desire to win" and more due to the happy circumstance that for most of the past 2-3 decades, most of the competition in their division has been highly incompetent, with the notable exception of the recent Ravens teams.

The Steelers are the ones who will be looking up in the standings at several teams for the next 2-5 years.

This is the dumbest argument in this entire thread. The Steelers are indeed due to enter a rebuilding phase, but you don't become the most successful franchise in the league over a 40 year period by accident. They are a very well run franchise. The Pens acquired top picks by being terrible 7-8 years ago. They were fortunate to come in second in the lottery, in a year when the 2 best prospects since Mario were eligible for the draft. They followed that up by winning the next lottery, when a third player of rare talent was available. There is not a team in the league that wouldn't have chosen the same players, had they been in the Pens spot. That was pure luck, not that I'm complaining. Most teams who win the lottery would be lucky to get a player of the caliber of Jordan Staal, For us to finish second in the year that both Ovie, and Geno were available is insane luck.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by erieguy

Yeah, they're arguably the most successful organization in sports history. How many super bowls/appearances "post Noll"?

Four appearances since 1980. They're 2-2.

Meantime...
New England: 7 (3-4)
San Francisco 6 (5-1)
NY Giants 5 (4-1)
Denver 5 (2-3)
Washington 4 (3-1)

Other teams with at least 2 SB wins since 1980: Dallas, Washington, Baltimore, Oakland, Denver, Green Bay.

So, since Noll, the Steelers aren't even top 5 in the NFL. Question answered with actual facts, not homer emotion.

The Montreal Canadiens aren't relevant much these days either. Lots of banners though.

Originally Posted by erieguy

Theyre due for a few bad years.

The Yankees won't be playing post-season baseball for only the 2nd time in past 17 years. That's continued, sustainble success. In that same time frame, Steelers have missed playoffs 7 times. So let's not talk about "arguably most successful franchise in sports" because that's just silly (not to mention the Steelers were as much as a joke as the Pirates pre-merger).

Originally Posted by erieguy

The Pirates having been sucking hind teet for 20. When they win another World Series or 2 for that matter, then they may be able to be talked about with the success of the Steelers.

I never said or even intimated that the Bucs were the equal of the Steelers in terms of recent history. What I noted was that the Bucs are on the rise and should be competitive for the next few years, while the Steelers likely won't be. Get used to it.