Guess which major U.S. metropolitan area led in Q1 2011 housing appreciation? (Philadelphia: transfer, neighborhood)

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Absolutely. In fact we know that NS specifically has been reluctant in the past to participate in such projects. It may take some arm-twisting.

Or be resigned to having to come up with a new route. The wrangling (legal and political) might not be worth it or possible.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

It may take some arm-twisting.

Arm-twisting a big business? Tom Corbett is your man. Heh.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Or be resigned to having to come up with a new route. The wrangling (legal and political) might not be worth it or possible.

That is a lot of money you are talking about. Keep in mind we eventually need these commuter lines to get into Downtown.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That is a lot of money you are talking about.

If the mill towns are as depressed and suffering as believed, now is as good a time as any. Or turn over a government owned street to light rail and pedestrian/bike ways.

In some cases, I wish I could remove rail lines (and even roads) as they are so close to the river. We want more public access to the rivers.

[stevo6]

I've become fairly pessimistic about the future of rail in our city, given the ruckus caused by the north shore extension, and the fact that even that modest project cost so much and took over 12 years to even get started.
The heavy rail lines around the city are used for industry and the transportation of goods to and from other parts. These are used heavily and its hard to imagine any sort of commuter rail service being inserted within that system. Not to mention that the railroads are notoriously protective of their turf.
Why can't buses serve the same function as light rail?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

If the mill towns are as depressed and suffering as believed, now is as good a time as any.

You are talking on the order of billions to provide new rail lines from the mill towns all the way into Downtown. No one is going to authorize spending that much money on such a project, and in fact if we had billions to spend on transit, there is a bunch of other things we should be doing first.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by stevo6

The heavy rail lines around the city are used for industry and the transportation of goods to and from other parts. These are used heavily and its hard to imagine any sort of commuter rail service being inserted within that system. Not to mention that the railroads are notoriously protective of their turf.

AVR wants to use their rail line for commuter rail during the day. So I think that one isn't problematic. The Mon Valley line is going to be more of a problem, but in other cities they have worked out deals in similar situations. Fortunately the FRA has become much more supportive of commuter and freight sharing lines.

Why can't buses serve the same function as light rail?

It depends on the situation. For commuter purposes, you need a dedicated ROW for at least part of the route in order to bypass congestion, or otherwise the service will be too slow to compete effectively with cars. That can in fact work with buses by using busways, and that is how the East Busway works, which allows buses to bypass congestion on the paths into and out of Downtown.

So in theory you could have more Busways along the rivers, but the thing is that Busways aren't much less expensive than new rail lines. This brings us back to the topic above: if you can use the existing rail lines for commuter rail, that is going to be much cheaper than either new Busways or new rail lines. Conversely, if you are going to have to build from the ground up anyway, it might make sense to use rail--ultimately it is cheaper to operate and has more capacity.

But there are a few areas where Busways likely make sense. Braddock, for example, is not far past the current end of the East Busway. With the way congestion is accumulating on I-376, I think it will likely end up making sense to extend the East Busway all the way to Monroeville, including service in Braddock.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

You are talking on the order of billions to provide new rail lines from the mill towns all the way into Downtown. No one is going to authorize spending that much money on such a project, and in fact if we had billions to spend on transit, there is a bunch of other things we should be doing first.

Then I guess that places the price tag on the present rail lines and the railroads know it.

In Atlanta. in some cases, dedicated transit rail lines were built near railroad lines. Helps with right-of-way issues and no need to share. I can't imagine Atlanta's MARTA rail working by sharing lines with the railroads.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by stevo6

I've become fairly pessimistic about the future of rail in our city, given the ruckus caused by the north shore extension, and the fact that even that modest project cost so much and took over 12 years to even get started.
The heavy rail lines around the city are used for industry and the transportation of goods to and from other parts. These are used heavily and its hard to imagine any sort of commuter rail service being inserted within that system. Not to mention that the railroads are notoriously protective of their turf.
Why can't buses serve the same function as light rail?

Buses aren't popular. I rode a light-rail line in Germany and it was far far better than a bus. Buses are cheap, flexible, and routes can be added and dropped overnight. But the rail has a more comfortable ride, the cars are larger and can be extended. Use rail for high density, high ridership areas and let buses handle the lighter, sparser routes.

I see buses as a half-ass solution. If you are going to do it, might as well do it right the first time.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Then I guess that places the price tag on the present rail lines and the railroads know it.

Ultimately, as the railroads well know from their own history, their property is subject to taking for public purposes. And I think typically the issues are less about access costs per se, and more about legal liability, prioritization, how to share maintenance costs, whether there will be adequate total capacity, and so on.

I can't imagine Atlanta's MARTA rail working by sharing lines with the railroads.

I don't know about Atlanta specifically, but something like 80% of commuter services in the U.S. and Canada share some track with freight. NS in particular owns tracks they share with the Virginia Railway Express, New Jersey Transit, and maybe other places.

In fact, NS shares track with light rail in New Jersey (meaning non-FRA compliant vehicles), and this is also happening in other places.