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This rail line will also be beneficial for Philadelphians who commute to Gloucester County for work as they can easily transfer from the PATCO station in Camden.
Eh... I think a line to Moorestown would of been better.
Way denser population and more opportunity for TOD development.
Plus Mt. Laurel is a pretty solid job center for South Jersey outside of Camden County. Gloucester County is more of a bedroom community with no strong job centers...
You could have a line that cuts North of Camden, through Cherry Hill and up to Mt. Laurel and Moorestown.
I think the Riverline was sort of a short sighted project. It was positive to connect Trenton and Camden... but there was no real vision to create dense TOD centers along the line... and most of those river towns are small and have no job centers.
I also find real issues with the KOP rail extension. It is sort of a mess with the proposed design.
Eh... I think a line to Moorestown would of been better.
Way denser population and more opportunity for TOD development.
Plus Mt. Laurel is a pretty solid job center for South Jersey outside of Camden County. Gloucester County is more of a bedroom community with no strong job centers...
You could have a line that cuts North of Camden, through Cherry Hill and up to Mt. Laurel and Moorestown.
I think the Riverline was sort of a short sighted project. It was positive to connect Trenton and Camden... but there was no real vision to create dense TOD centers along the line... and most of those river towns are small and have no job centers.
I also find real issues with the KOP rail extension. It is sort of a mess with the proposed design.
The original 1952 study Parsons Brinckerhoff conducted for the newly christened Delaware River Port Authority concerning rapid transit for South Jersey identified three corridors that could support rapid transit service. Corridor A served Moorestown, roughly following NJ 38; Corridor B would serve Kirkwood (now Lindenwold), roughly paralleing US 30; and Corridor C would go to Woodbury Heights, using rail lines paralleling NJ 47.
A followup report recommended that Corridor B be built first, as the greatest potential ridership lived along it.
The Glassboro-Camden Line is in essence Corridor C extended beyond its original terminus. Since there had been talk about building an actual rapid transit line in that corridor for nearly two decades before this line got started in earnest, it seems to me that it would follow that it would get built next.
The River Line was mainly a sop to South Jersey pols upset that all the transit construction dollars were being spent in North Jersey. The line's projected ridership was so low that the Federal Transit Administration refused to give it a capital grant toward its construction. The chief attribute recommending it was that it used an existing railroad line that was already in place and thus could be built quickly.
The Route 100 spur should have been routed along DeKalb Pike (US 202) itself. I don't know why this alignment wasn't even considered.
The Riverline was absolutely money that could have been better spent elsewhere. That being said, it's pretty cool that all those little river towns have light rail. It's probably helped stop or slow the decline of places like Riverton and Bordentown.
I'm very excited to see the Glassboro line go in. I disagree that it lacks significant job centers, given that a major employer plus a decent-sized university (Rowan) is at the end of the line. That will help with ridership. I think the line will also help Woodbury revitalize (the town has really good bones). Hopefully, Wenonah doesn't block a station in the town. That place is a serious hidden gem. The taxes are insane but man that town looks like it's out of a storybook!
All that being said, I'd love to see a transit line in the Merchantville/Mooresville/Mt Laurel corridor. The major problem there is going to be ROW. You could use the Atlantic City Line and add a stop in Merchantville but you would need to use the spur to get to Mooresville/Mt Laurel which branches off the ACL before the ideal place for a Merchantville station. Lots to deal with there. In the meantime, I'd love to see NJT activate a stop on the ACL in Merchantville. I think a new station would have to be built but I could be wrong.
The Riverline was absolutely money that could have been better spent elsewhere. That being said, it's pretty cool that all those little river towns have light rail. It's probably helped stop or slow the decline of places like Riverton and Bordentown.
I'm very excited to see the Glassboro line go in. I disagree that it lacks significant job centers, given that a major employer plus a decent-sized university (Rowan) is at the end of the line. That will help with ridership. I think the line will also help Woodbury revitalize (the town has really good bones). Hopefully, Wenonah doesn't block a station in the town. That place is a serious hidden gem. The taxes are insane but man that town looks like it's out of a storybook!
All that being said, I'd love to see a transit line in the Merchantville/Mooresville/Mt Laurel corridor. The major problem there is going to be ROW. You could use the Atlantic City Line and add a stop in Merchantville but you would need to use the spur to get to Mooresville/Mt Laurel which branches off the ACL before the ideal place for a Merchantville station. Lots to deal with there. In the meantime, I'd love to see NJT activate a stop on the ACL in Merchantville. I think a new station would have to be built but I could be wrong.
Eh I disagree..
In South Jersey terms... for employment numbers. Burlington County is second to Camden County for jobs...
Gloucester County is mostly a bedroom community and that is because it is more rural and overall has lower property taxes.. so it has seen more growth recently. Sure you have Rowan... but that is really the only major employer in Gloucester County... Burlington County has significantly more employers and is larger overall.
Wennoah looks cute, but it is nothing unique. It has a few nice victorian homes down its Main Street but no real commercial corridor or businesses. Not sure what makes this town special...
Connecting Moorestown with Philadelphia via rail would be a game changer for South Jersey and I would advocate that...
You also think about all those people in Mercer County who would take advantage of a transit connection and drive to Burlington County to get to Philadelphia... sure you have Trenton.. but in terms of park and ride it is not very friendly to make the trip.
In South Jersey terms... for employment numbers. Burlington County is second to Camden County for jobs...
Gloucester County is mostly a bedroom community and that is because it is more rural and overall has lower property taxes.. so it has seen more growth recently. Sure you have Rowan... but that is really the only major employer in Gloucester County... Burlington County has significantly more employers and is larger overall.
Wennoah looks cute, but it is nothing unique. It has a few nice victorian homes down its Main Street but no real commercial corridor or businesses. Not sure what makes this town special...
Connecting Moorestown with Philadelphia via rail would be a game changer for South Jersey and I would advocate that...
You also think about all those people in Mercer County who would take advantage of a transit connection and drive to Burlington County to get to Philadelphia... sure you have Trenton.. but in terms of park and ride it is not very friendly to make the trip.
I don't disagree with that, Burlington has impressive job numbers and the Moorestown/Mt Laurel area is doing great. My point is that it's going to be a much, much harder lift to do rail there than along the Glassboro line. It should be studied and done, for sure. Wenonah is definitely unique. I can't think of another small SJ town wish such an impressive, in-tact stock of Victorian homes. Not much of a commercial corridor and its definitely a bedroom community. I think the Glassboro line is still a huge step forward for SJ.
I don't disagree with that, Burlington has impressive job numbers and the Moorestown/Mt Laurel area is doing great. My point is that it's going to be a much, much harder lift to do rail there than along the Glassboro line. It should be studied and done, for sure. Wenonah is definitely unique. I can't think of another small SJ town wish such an impressive, in-tact stock of Victorian homes. Not much of a commercial corridor and its definitely a bedroom community. I think the Glassboro line is still a huge step forward for SJ.
You are correct. The ROW will be much more challenging with Burlington County since it is largely more developed and established. I think though the potential for high impact TOD growth is pretty high here. And if I remember there are existing rail lines that extend out this way... but I am not sure how it would all be coordinated....
South Jersey definitely deserves a second commuter line...
I vote it goes towards the larger county. Gloucester County is less than half the population of Burlington County. It is well known Gloucester County is a bedroom community with not many large employers...
and Mt. Laurel/ Moorestown are 100% an anchor community of South Jersey that would probably see even see more growth if it had a commuter line. I would argue with a proper commuter line, Mt. Laurel could become the Conshohocken of South Jersey...
With the Pennsylvania suburbs growing quickly and the close in suburbs getting expensive..... I am all for seeing coordinated growth for South Jersey.. which will prosper around its transit connectivity to Philadelphia.
I do think there is also more opportunity for Riverline development. But the Riverline is mostly a miss. I have ridden it and it is slow... extremely slow and not very convenient for commuting purposes.
(agreed about the effect on the region of building Corridor A, but again, it would have significantly higher cost — that was the reason why we're getting light rail rather than PATCO rapid transit in Corridor C. Nobody's identified a funding source yet, and there would have to be ROW acquisition in order to build the line where it needed to be built. The River Line is proof that New Jersey goes for the low-hanging fruit cost-wise first in South Jersey)
You also think about all those people in Mercer County who would take advantage of a transit connection and drive to Burlington County to get to Philadelphia... sure you have Trenton.. but in terms of park and ride it is not very friendly to make the trip.
There are sizable park-and-ride lots at both Princeton Junction and the new infill station at Hamilton. I suspect most Mercer Countians would go to these two before driving down to Burlington County to catch a train into Philadelphia, even if doing so means a single-seat ride rather than a change of trains.
There are sizable park-and-ride lots at both Princeton Junction and the new infill station at Hamilton. I suspect most Mercer Countians would go to these two before driving down to Burlington County to catch a train into Philadelphia, even if doing so means a single-seat ride rather than a change of trains.
Eh I disagree with this severely... there is a reason why people from Bucks County who need to get to NYC drive to Hamilton and do not make the transfer. It is cumbersome and from a conductor I talked to and almost shunned me for even asking.... SEPTA and NJ Transit do not coordinate transfers in Trenton. (Heck I know people in Northern Montgomery County who skip over Trenton and drive to Hamilton for a NYC trip with NJ Transit.)
So if one train is running late.. You are out of luck..
(To be honest it is crazy to me Trenton is in the state it is as a city in New Jersey... you have beautiful and affluent Bucks County across the river and then Princeton next door which is just as affluent).... Harrisburg is by far way nicer than Trenton. It baffles my mind how Trenton is so far behind... I mention this because many people I know do not even want to set foot in Trenton... and to be honest. Trenton has nothing going for it at the moment and I do not blame them.
With that... I believe just as people from Burlington, Bucks and Montgomery County drive to Mercer County to get to NYC... people from Mercer County would drive to Burlington County to get to Philadelphia if you have a high speed, high frequency commuter line.... I know tons of people from Burlington County who take NJ Transit and drive to Hamilton... the same would be done by people in Mercer County if Moorestown and slightly further north had a station.
And as I stated.. Mt. Laurel is a job anchor of South Jersey and deserves transit... It has the potential to be a major hub... it is the home to some major employers.
Gloucester County is very rural overall, not very dense whatsoever... and the investment would be a waste of money. Pretty much just as much as the Riverline is a total waste of money. The frequency is low... it serves very unpopulated towns... and it is so slow.. It is mind blowing how slow it is. It is definitely not a commuter line. It takes about 1hr and 45 minutes to commute from Trenton via Camden to Philadelphia on the Riverline... verses about 45 minutes from Trenton to Philadelphia via SEPTA.
Having a station north of Moorestown actually would be a bridge for Central Jersey to Philadelphia and would have the largest economic impact for Philadelphia itself and South and Central Jersey.
Gloucester County is extremely rural and nothing but a bedroom community.
I also think NJ Transit solo commuter line to Atlantic City is severely under utilized.. and could be a catalyze for major growth.. Especially if NJ could build some sort of light rail network connecting at least AC, Margate, Vetnor and Brigatine...
Jobs though are the problem in AC with no real economy outside casinos... and there is not much of an economy along the commuter line in those south jersey towns.. but it definitely has potential. (this is also proof why Gloucester should be a lower priority than Burlington to invest in rail transit).
Im all for South Jersey getting some improved transit. North Jersey definitely got the better end of the stick. Gloucester County though is very small with only about 250,000 people and does not really contain any major employment centers or connect to Central Jersey which is a major employment hub with high growth jobs...
So eh. I think it is another short sighted move.. just as the Riverline has proven to be.
Last edited by rowhomecity; 06-17-2021 at 02:17 AM..
Eh I disagree with this severely... there is a reason why people from Bucks County who need to get to NYC drive to Hamilton and do not make the transfer. It is cumbersome and from a conductor I talked to and almost shunned me for even asking.... SEPTA and NJ Transit do not coordinate transfers in Trenton. (Heck I know people in Northern Montgomery County who skip over Trenton and drive to Hamilton for a NYC trip with NJ Transit.)
So if one train is running late.. You are out of luck..
(To be honest it is crazy to me Trenton is in the state it is as a city in New Jersey... you have beautiful and affluent Bucks County across the river and then Princeton next door which is just as affluent).... Harrisburg is by far way nicer than Trenton. It baffles my mind how Trenton is so far behind... I mention this because many people I know do not even want to set foot in Trenton... and to be honest. Trenton has nothing going for it at the moment and I do not blame them.
With that... I believe just as people from Burlington, Bucks and Montgomery County drive to Mercer County to get to NYC... people from Mercer County would drive to Burlington County to get to Philadelphia if you have a high speed, high frequency commuter line.... I know tons of people from Burlington County who take NJ Transit and drive to Hamilton... the same would be done by people in Mercer County if Moorestown and slightly further north had a station.
And as I stated.. Mt. Laurel is a job anchor of South Jersey and deserves transit... It has the potential to be a major hub... it is the home to some major employers.
Gloucester County is very rural overall, not very dense whatsoever... and the investment would be a waste of money. Pretty much just as much as the Riverline is a total waste of money. The frequency is low... it serves very unpopulated towns... and it is so slow.. It is mind blowing how slow it is. It is definitely not a commuter line. It takes about 1hr and 45 minutes to commute from Trenton via Camden to Philadelphia on the Riverline... verses about 45 minutes from Trenton to Philadelphia via SEPTA.
Having a station north of Moorestown actually would be a bridge for Central Jersey to Philadelphia and would have the largest economic impact for Philadelphia itself and South and Central Jersey.
Gloucester County is extremely rural and nothing but a bedroom community.
I also think NJ Transit solo commuter line to Atlantic City is severely under utilized.. and could be a catalyze for major growth.. Especially if NJ could build some sort of light rail network connecting at least AC, Margate, Vetnor and Brigatine...
Jobs though are the problem in AC with no real economy outside casinos... and there is not much of an economy along the commuter line in those south jersey towns.. but it definitely has potential. (this is also proof why Gloucester should be a lower priority than Burlington to invest in rail transit).
Im all for South Jersey getting some improved transit. North Jersey definitely got the better end of the stick. Gloucester County though is very small with only about 250,000 people and does not really contain any major employment centers or connect to Central Jersey which is a major employment hub with high growth jobs...
So eh. I think it is another short sighted move.. just as the Riverline has proven to be.
Have you seen the Rowan University campus lately?
The $100 million gift that caused Glassboro State College to rename itself for the donor transformed it dramatically. It was once a small teachers' college of the kind Pennsylvania is about to shrink out of existence to reduce the costs of running the State System of Higher Education; it's now a notable regional university that draws students from all over the country and 40 foreign countries — about 20,000 of them. I learned from a fellow who lives on Glassboro's west side (near Rowan's athletic practice fields) that students were filling the houses in his subdivision as they were all over the borough; to fix this, borough and university poured $426 million into producing this chunk of Instant Urbanism on what had been 96 single-family homes right in the center of the borough.
Maybe there's not enough going on between here and Camden to justify a light rail line, but this strikes me as a big potential traffic driver at its end. And the line certainly has the potential to spur redevelopment along it, especially in Woodbury and a couple of other towns along NJ 55, like Pitman (Route 55, you may recall, was completed into Gloucester County in the early 1990s; this line will roughly parallel at its outer end).
Now, I also know that won't happen unless the communities along its route want it to, and one of those communities where a station is planned, Wenonah, doesn't want the line to stop there at all. But I think that Gloucester City (which is in Camden County, granted) and Woodbury would definitely want to capitalize on the line's potential.
I'm not saying that this rivals Corridor A in the amount of economic activity or traffic drivers along it; the Cherry Hill Mall alone makes that a laughable proposition. (Edited to add: And while Corridor A as proposed in that 1952 report would stop short of Mount Laurel, extending it beyond Moorestown to there would not be all that costly, and any route that extended to the Burlington County seat of Mount Holly would perforce run through Mount Laurel.) But I am saying that the GCL won't be a RiverLine-scale waste of money, largely because of what's happened at its end.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-17-2021 at 05:10 AM..
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