Philadelphia 2035 (Franklin, Belmont, Liberty: tools, 2006, popular)

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Fair enough... Lets say Toll decided to building on a vacant lot or tear down an eyesore building in that area to build a tall tower, would you fully support the project then? Is the demo of Jewelers Row the only reason you are against this proposal?

The demolition of jewelers row is a big thing to me. However, I really dislike the idea of towers blocking the view of city hall from the river. I also think that what gets built in olde city needs to be proportional. It creates visual depth. That might not matter to you, but it matters to me.

If Toll Brothers built something proportional on jewelers row they can have at it. They have a reputation for disregarding the areas where they build.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The demolition of jewelers row is a big thing to me. However, I really dislike the idea of towers blocking the view of city hall from the river. I also think that what gets built in olde city needs to be proportional. It creates visual depth. That might not matter to you, but it matters to me.

If Toll Brothers built something proportional on jewelers row they can have at it. They have a reputation for disregarding the areas where they build.

At 29 stories it wouldn't even be the tallest building in that area... You have the St James next door that is nearly twice the story count, and several buildings in the area are 200-400ft tall.


Clearly we won't agree, because I would never halt progress and growth because the precious views of City Hall would be blocked from the river. That is some 1980s talk when people were upset about Liberty Place being built.


To me, a slender 500ft attractive tower is far more proportional than a 10 story shoebox that takes up an entire block.


I use these examples a lot: 1706 Rittenhouse and the Medical Tower across the street are fantastic examples of that.


The new Aramark building on the Schuylkill River is horrible, but no one complains because its short. I just can't relate to this fear of heights attitude that reigns over so much of the city... If Toll is going to win, why settle for a blah midrise when we could possibly get a great high-rise?

[RightonWalnut]

^^I agree. Screw not building something to "preserve views" of something else. Forget about that! Build tall and create new views.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by cpomp

I don't see dollar signs, I see progress and growth (I want to see renderings, then I will make up my mind). Philadelphia according to your standards, at least now I live in a city that shook its provincial attitude hundreds of years ago---> New York City.

Not hundreds re NY. Probably closer to, oh, the Gilded age...1890s. Look up the Five Points sometime to see how awful that was.


But tbh I wish Toll was doing another development somewhere else, along the waterfront maybe, and I wish we could see some renderings of this project. Still nothing about it.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The demolition of jewelers row is a big thing to me. However, I really dislike the idea of towers blocking the view of city hall from the river. I also think that what gets built in olde city needs to be proportional. It creates visual depth. That might not matter to you, but it matters to me.

If Toll Brothers built something proportional on jewelers row they can have at it. They have a reputation for disregarding the areas where they build.

How long has it been since you were in Philly? City Hall has been blocked, by other buildings, for decades now. ... starting with Liberty Place One.

There is a tower being built on the northern edge of Old City right now that you probably would not like at all.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The demolition of jewelers row is a big thing to me. However, I really dislike the idea of towers blocking the view of city hall from the river. I also think that what gets built in olde city needs to be proportional. It creates visual depth. That might not matter to you, but it matters to me.

If Toll Brothers built something proportional on jewelers row they can have at it. They have a reputation for disregarding the areas where they build.

This project only involves part of it though.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by kyb01

How long has it been since you were in Philly? City Hall has been blocked, by other buildings, for decades now. ... starting with Liberty Place One.

There is a tower being built on the northern edge of Old City right now that you probably would not like at all.

The views of city hall have been blocked for decades when the new gentleman's agreement was adopted to block city hall from the west. When did you last enter Center City from the Ben Franklin or from 95?

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The views of city hall have been blocked for decades when the new gentleman's agreement was adopted to block city hall from the west. When did you last enter Center City from the Ben Franklin or from 95?

I did just that this evening. The city looks fantastic at night.

I actually understand your POV here about City Hall. But, truthfully, City Hall is not being neglected in spite of newer buildings towering over it or blocking it. DIlworth Park has made it a "go to" destination all year round. The fountains that kids play in in summer. The ice skating rink now and all the Christmas booths surrounding City Hall and the court yard. There's a carousel in the court yard too.

Remember the old Dilworth Plaza and what an eyesore that turned into? All gone and replaced by the above with City Hall as a gorgeous backdrop.

[Pine to Vine]

Originally Posted by RightonWalnut

^^I've come to support the Toll development more now that I know the owners of the buildings, and other retailers/property owners on Jeweler's Row are fully for it. As long as they preserve the facades, set the tower back from the street, and build ground floor retail space and offer the space to the retailers first, I have become okay with this development.

The problem with having this high rise on Jewelers' Row is that it won't be the last. Once the fabric of the block has been broken, this building will drive real estate value higher and the jewelers will one by one begin to leave when they can't afford the rent.

There are lots of nearby spots for Toll Brothers to build what will be yet another mixed use extravaganza without permanently destroying a corner of the city with actual character.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by Pine to Vine

There are lots of nearby spots for Toll Brothers to build what will be yet another mixed use extravaganza without permanently destroying a corner of the city with actual character.

One, "yet another"? Toll Brothers City Living's projects in Philadelphia to date have been strictly residential, with a token retail space on the 24th Street side of 2400 South being the sole nod to mixed-use. This project would be the company's first of its kind in Philadelphia. As I said, this marks Toll doing what urbanist advocates have asked it to do for years.

But yes, let's see renderings. It's hard to make a final judgement without them.

Two, "lots of nearby spots"? Yes, there's a parking lot in the 800 block of Walnut, just east of the Walnut Street Theatre, that could support a project of this size. And there's the old Gimbels site in the block bounded by 8th, 9th, Market and Chestnut that could support all kinds of stuff. And a third surface lot in the 700 block of Chestnut. But there must be some reason no one's proposing anything for the Gimbels site since the attempt to make it a casino got blocked. As for the others, it's probably a matter of where Toll could get land for a price it wanted to pay.

Originally Posted by kyb01

How long has it been since you were in Philly? City Hall has been blocked, by other buildings, for decades now. ... starting with Liberty Place One.

There is a tower being built on the northern edge of Old City right now that you probably would not like at all.

Construction photos forthcoming. It's a really cool building, and well thought out. Shame no one could figure out how to get rid of that billboard next to it.

Originally Posted by cpomp

At 29 stories it wouldn't even be the tallest building in that area... You have the St James next door that is nearly twice the story count, and several buildings in the area are 200-400ft tall.

I don't think the St. James has 58 floors. I also think it's closer to 200' than 400' in height, though it's clearly taller than 200'.

The new Aramark building on the Schuylkill River is horrible, but no one complains because its short. I just can't relate to this fear of heights attitude that reigns over so much of the city... If Toll is going to win, why settle for a blah midrise when we could possibly get a great high-rise?

What's bugged me about the Aramark project is: Who got rid of its residential component?

The original plan was for offices in an expanded Marketplace building with a residential midrise above it. The design by Varenhorst and Gensler was very much boxy, but it did break the box up into some interesting irregular shapes.

But at the time, PMC hadn't found a tenant for the office space. Which leads me to guess that Aramark didn't want to share any building it would be lead tenant in with apartments.