Philadelphia 2035 (Chester, Norristown, King of Prussia: employment, ferry, suburb)

[Marius Pontmercy]

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

the KOP Mall opened in 1963 when there were 270,000 fewer people in MontCo. In addition to the destruction of capital that would occur from disinvesting in KOP, you'd need at least 4 Norristowns to be able handle all of the retail and office/industrial space.

The easier thing to do is to invest in both places and make both places less auto-dependent.




There's nothing wrong with express buses. The problem is that they can't carry as many people as a train so when you have to move more people you need to hire more drivers - as opposed to adding another rail car.

They can't just "add another car" on the NHSL since that line uses "streetcar" style trains. Maybe they can run as pairs, but nothing beyond that. KOP was built for cars, not trains, and to try and beat it into what it isn't is doomed to failure. Well, maybe not failure, but its one of those instance that aren't ideal. There's numerous locations in the metro that could benefit from restored rail service. Heck, I'd even go as far as to say the money would be better used just updating existing infrastructure around the system that needs replacing now.

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

the KOP Mall opened in 1963 when there were 270,000 fewer people in MontCo. In addition to the destruction of capital that would occur from disinvesting in KOP, you'd need at least 4 Norristowns to be able handle all of the retail and office/industrial space.

The easier thing to do is to invest in both places and make both places less auto-dependent.




There's nothing wrong with express buses. The problem is that they can't carry as many people as a train so when you have to move more people you need to hire more drivers - as opposed to adding another rail car.

There's a huge difference between disinvesting in somewhere and not strengthening the weaknesses that should inevitably lead the industrial and office and some of the retail to go back to where it came from in the first place.

Where do you think KOP took all of that from? Upper Darby, Norristown, Philly, etc etc. We've got more than enough room to fit it all.

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

They can't just "add another car" on the NHSL since that line uses "streetcar" style trains. Maybe they can run as pairs, but nothing beyond that. KOP was built for cars, not trains, and to try and beat it into what it isn't is doomed to failure. Well, maybe not failure, but its one of those instance that aren't ideal. There's numerous locations in the metro that could benefit from restored rail service. Heck, I'd even go as far as to say the money would be better used just updating existing infrastructure around the system that needs replacing now.

Exactly.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

They can't just "add another car" on the NHSL since that line uses "streetcar" style trains. Maybe they can run as pairs, but nothing beyond that. KOP was built for cars, not trains, and to try and beat it into what it isn't is doomed to failure. Well, maybe not failure, but its one of those instance that aren't ideal. There's numerous locations in the metro that could benefit from restored rail service. Heck, I'd even go as far as to say the money would be better used just updating existing infrastructure around the system that needs replacing now.

While KOP was built for Cars , its easy to change it into a transit oriented area. Between Road Diets and some Zoning changes this can be done in a few years...

[UDResident]

Can and should are two different things though.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by UDResident

Can and should are two different things though.

Though there is no reason why KOP etc cant be further developed with more dense development nor any reason the general Philly area cant be better (including CC) with a better more complimentary business district with density or office and residential.

A train line to KOP in theory for just a mall could be obsolete in 25 years without change.

Not sure if this would be an opportunity as today it is just a large box wegmans

Office & Retail Space in King Of Prussia PA | Shopping Center | Retail Mall

[UDResident]

There is a reason. KOP and other similar suburban, auto-centric places are what killed Philly and so many other actually urban places before. Making them into something they're not will only ensure that it continues to happen. There shouldn't be a train line going there in the first place.

KOP is fine as what it is. It doesn't need to be anything other than an auto-centric, suburban, sprawled out business/industrial(?)/retail/entertainment/restaurant center.

Turning any part of KOP into a "village" is just so incredibly stupid. Instead of strengthening actual urban, walkable places in the metro, they want to artificially attempt to re-create them.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by UDResident

There is a reason. KOP and other similar suburban, auto-centric places are what killed Philly and so many other actually urban places before. Making them into something they're not will only ensure that it continues to happen. There shouldn't be a train line going there in the first place.

KOP is fine as what it is. It doesn't need to be anything other than an auto-centric, suburban, sprawled out business/industrial(?)/retail/entertainment/restaurant center.

Turning any part of KOP into a "village" is just so incredibly stupid. Instead of strengthening actual urban, walkable places in the metro, they want to artificially attempt to re-create them.

to me though this is short sighted. Many places can and do develop additional centers. Walkable cores dont have to be just in one place. Suburban incarnations can be desirable residential centers too

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

to me though this is short sighted. Many places can and do develop additional centers. Walkable cores dont have to be just in one place. Suburban incarnations can be desirable residential centers too

No, what you're proposing is short-sighted. That "village" they're proposing is short sighted. Making a sprawled out, auto-centric suburban area denser or more "walkable" instead of realizing that Norristown, Philly, and other actually urban, walkable, dense parts of the metro can and will be revitalized is what's short-sighted.

Taking away the only advantages they have over places like KOP will effectively insure that they never come back.

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

They can't just "add another car" on the NHSL since that line uses "streetcar" style trains. Maybe they can run as pairs, but nothing beyond that.

They already run two car consists during rush hour. The only thing stopping them coupling together 2 two-car consists is the length of the platform. Given that almost all of the stations are at grade or in an open cut it's a relatively easy remedy.

The Route 100 is not light rail. It's heavy rail that has some operational similarities with light rail.

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TOD should be encouraged everywhere. Making better transit connections between the city and suburbs should be encouraged everywhere - it ultimately benefits the city. Not building a 2.5 mile extension of a rail line that already exists (and that already has enough rail cars to run the service) right to the heart of the 3rd largest job center in the region is just plain foolish.

In case you've never been outbound on the R5 Paoli, R6 Norristown, or the Route 100 - the trains are packed with people who live in the city and work in the 'burbs. Making it easier to get to those jobs makes it easier for people to stay in the city. It's not realistic to think that everyone in the city who is upwardly mobile is going to be able to spend their entire career working in the city when 75% of the metro population and 75% of the jobs in the metro are outside of the city limits.

Industry, retail, warehousing, supply chains, etc have changed dramatically since the 1950s. So has the size of the metro population. While Philadelphia could easily absorb another 300k residents it's no longer possible for the city to have half the people living in the metro inside of the city limits. Household size has fallen by half since the city was at peak population and most households bigger than 2 aren't willing to share a 700 s/f rowhome. There just isn't enough room in the city for all of the warehouses, research space and big retail footprints of modern chain stores. Just as the 'burbs need the city to define the region the city needs the 'burbs for all of the things that will no longer fit in the city.

[Toure]

I do t think there's a need for public transportation from Philly to KOP. Kop is a place where family's go there in a car. And who wavta to go back with all them hollister bags?