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When building tall buildings in Center City, which has very narrow streets, setbacks at the upper floors are very important, as to not shroud the streets in shadow. "Light & Air" is a very valuable commodity in dense downtown areas. In NYC and Chicago (ie: "skyscraper cities") these setbacks are vigorously enforced by zoning codes for this reason, even with the streets being generally much wider than Philly's. Developers don't like light and air, because it isn't directly sellable square footage. This is another reason codes need to be followed.
I imagine that in 1983/84 or so, when Willard Rouse first proposed Liberty Place I, you may have been one of the people objecting to breaking the Gentleman's Agreement, about building taller than the William Penn statue on City Hall. Plenty of people, then, thought exactly the way you do now about some of these new projects. Were they right? IMO, no.
While you make good points, you are still new to the city and you weren't around when there was practically no development anywhere in the city.
As someone who's lived here a long time my perspective is I'd rather see the development than the equvalent of none.
As a longtime resident of Philadelphia who does remember when the height limit was broken, I disagree. I don't believe in development at all costs. I think that mediocre skyscrapers for their own sake are not especially desirable. I think that skylines are an odd american obsession, and are mostly gemeric and greatly overrated in the grand scheme of world cities. And I think that development should primarily be for the long term good of the city, not the short term good of developers.
Those 80's era postmodern skyscrapers, from a time when every American city was building similar postmodern skyscrapers, are the least interesting or remarkable thing about the city, IMO.
The Pathmark at 180 West Chelten will reopen as a Thriftway; the owners of Norristown Thriftway bought the store from A&P during the company's second round of store options.
Has anyone tried Happy Bread, the new cafe at G'town and Chelten, yet?
But speaking of the Plaza at Chelten, anyone notice that half its spaces are now vacant? I realize that two of the vacancies (Citibank and Anna's Linens) are the result of companies either pulling out of the Philadelphia market completely (the bank) or going out of business entirely (the home store), but I'd say it's not a good sign that the spaces don't seem to be filling fast.
Good info. The Chestnut Hill Pathmark is reopening as Acme, as a somewhat related aside.
Next time I'm at Germantown and Chelten I'm going to try Happy Bread - from its twitter it looks like an improvement over Dunkin Donuts.
Chelten Avenue is possibly over-retailed - a state subsidized strip mall next to a train station wasn't the brightest idea, especially on the most appealing stretch of Chelten Avenue, which is host to a few apartment buildings that are definitely out of my price range. I don't know the zoning behind it - possibly a strip mall is all that could have been built her to begin with - which would be sad if so. Do you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome
My mom, who lives a few blocks away, describes the Save-A-Lot as a place where she buys cat food and that's it.
Took me a while to go to Save-a-Lot based on its reputation and what I know other stores to be, only went there one day when Pathmark wasn't opened well after its advertised time. Anyway, it's clean, the staff is very friendly, the meat and produce are the same that they sell at Fresh Grocer (supermarket quality, which is better than I expected going in), and they have a good selection of name brand items for a decent price (cereal, snacks, soda, bakery stuff, teas, all the Goya stuff, spices....basically anything I'd go to a big box store to begin with anyway) as well as their super cheap store brands which are of varying quality. I try to avoid the big box stores as much as possible, and still did after shopping here, but as weird as it is to say, this place is one of the least offensive supermarkets I've been to. Was glad to have it around, especially as I could often feed two people for a week for 30-some dollars.
There are four projects in particular where I feel the planned height is disproportional to their surroundings:
- The 30+ story apartment complex set to go onto the old Boyd Theatre site
- The 22 story condo under construction on Locust near the Schuylkill trail
- The 47 story hotel/condo at S Broad & Locust
- The 26 story uber-lux condo going up on 5th and Walnut overlooking Indepence Hall
I disagree with you on all fronts.
-1910 Chestnut: there is no reason why a block in Center City should be as blighted as the 1900 block of Chestnut, especially considering its propinquity to Rittenhouse Square. The only other stretch in Center City that I can think of as being blighted is S 11th Street between Market and Chestnut, but this will change with East Market, 34 S 11th, and 1100 Chestnut. 1910 Chestnut will fill in a void along Chestnut.
-One Riverside: with the success of the Schuylkill River Trail, land close to the Trail is hot right now. People want to live close to it. Also, the skyline is starting to spread out along the Schuylkill. This and CHOP Tower, along with the rest of the phases of that project, will add buildings along the Shuylkill.
-SLS International: South Broad Street between City Hall and South, with a height node at Broad and Washington, should be among the densest corridors in the city. 590' at Broad and Spruce is super-reasonable given its location on South Broad. This also gives Philly an opportunity to expand its skyline southward.
-500 Walnut: personally, I think the buildings behind Independence Hall make for a beautiful setback. One might see, as I do, colonial Philadelphia and modern Philadelphia represented. Speaking of beautiful, 500 Walnut is a beautifully-designed building.
All of these buildings will add to the vibrancy of Philly, which already has one of America's best downtown experiences. All of these buildings also convert inactive parcels into taxpaying units, and we all know that Philly is in need of tax revenues.
Admittedly, I am a height fanatic. I LOVE seeing tall structures being erected in Philly. I would love to see all of Market West at its maximum height. Height east of Broad and north along Broad are also things that I dream of. In fact, instead of trying to transform the Gallery, why not knock it down and redevelop it into high-rises at street-level? There could always be an underground component. Whenever SEPTA's Powelton Yard and Amtrak's Penn Coach Yard get capped, I would love to see height (transitional, of course, due to the proximity of Powelton Village and Mantua) behind 30th Street. Hell, I hope that I will get to see the day that 34th Street holds some of Philly's most expensive real estate. Finally, I would love to see tall buildings in Camden. Camden is to Philly as Jersey City is to New York.
The only place that I don't wish for much height is along Columbus Boulevard. Buildings to the scale of One Water Street lined along Columbus Boulevard and Delaware Avenue would really transform the area by the Delaware River.
As a longtime resident of Philadelphia who does remember when the height limit was broken, I disagree. I don't believe in development at all costs. I think that mediocre skyscrapers for their own sake are not especially desirable. I think that skylines are an odd american obsession, and are mostly gemeric and greatly overrated in the grand scheme of world cities. And I think that development should primarily be for the long term good of the city, not the short term good of developers.
Those 80's era postmodern skyscrapers, from a time when every American city was building similar postmodern skyscrapers, are the least interesting or remarkable thing about the city, IMO.
I understand this POV. But the mindset I had at time was that we would maybe, finally, break the strangle-hold Sam Rappaport had on so much Center City real estate back then.
I understand this POV. But the mindset I had at time was that we would maybe, finally, break the strangle-hold Sam Rappaport had on so much Center City real estate back then.
It didn't, though. Turns out it took him dying for that to happen! lol
When those new skyscrapers were built, the biggest effect was that it emptied out or downgraded other office buildings in Center City whose tenants were lured away by tax breaks in the shiny new buildings.
Last edited by rotodome; 11-09-2015 at 07:15 AM..
Reason: how did I misspell "LOL"?
It didn't, though. Turns out it took him dying for that to happen! lol
When those new skyscrapers were built, the biggest effect was that it emptied out or downgraded other office buildings in Center City whose tenants were lured away by tax breaks in the shiny new buildings.
Given than one of his "proteges" was the owner of the collapsed building fiasco at 22nd and Market, his effect is still being felt.
It was a weird thing about living on Germantown - the kind of people I saw on Walnut Lane, Harvey, Haines, Rittenhouse, rarely seemed to come down to Chelten - a place I realied on because I didn't drive. That's a lot of the problem. In addition to the insitutions that left versus those that moved in (a more widespread, probably almost national problem).
Yeah, that's the biggest issue. We were discussing the new "Happy Bread" restaurant on the Living in Germantown FB page and some people stated they wouldn't try it out because of the area and Gtown/Chelten intersection. I don't get that-maybe it looks a little seedy but it's a very active intersection with people from all over the city going to/from work/school/etc. Businesses should be thriving there, but people in the neighborhood need to start supporting them first.
I wish the Wayne/Chelten intersection could be redone with the closing of the Pathmark. Have the new supermarket be closer to the street and maybe put the parking lot behind it.
I also wonder what's going on with The Maplewood Mall. I'm pretty sure there was a $Million grant for improvements, but I haven't noticed anything.
Turns out you are not the only one. I seem to have disturbed the hornet nest by suggesting that some of Philly's current high rise projects may be out of proportion to their street level settings. Some seem to have interpreted my comments to mean that in lieu of a highrise, I am proposing that these sites have no development - kind of a highrise or nothing binary view. Then there are the inferences as to how I would have opposed now successfully completed projects. Finally, there is the opinion that since I've only lived here 5 years, I have no insight into how these projects will impact the city when it's Philly's vibrant brand of urbanity which drew me here in the first place.
I am not a developer nor am I an architect or urban planner, but I do have an eye on how I hope to see my adopted city continue to grow and improve the lives of its residents and visitors. I also bring the perspective of someone who has lived in a number of different places outside the Delaware Valley, including one I consider perhaps the worst model of urban development in the country. I hope I am wrong and that these 4 projects enhace the style of urbanity we all enjoy. It's the street level environment which drew me here, not the skyline.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013
I disagree with you on all fronts.
-1910 Chestnut: there is no reason why a block in Center City should be as blighted as the 1900 block of Chestnut, especially considering its propinquity to Rittenhouse Square. The only other stretch in Center City that I can think of as being blighted is S 11th Street between Market and Chestnut, but this will change with East Market, 34 S 11th, and 1100 Chestnut. 1910 Chestnut will fill in a void along Chestnut.
-One Riverside: with the success of the Schuylkill River Trail, land close to the Trail is hot right now. People want to live close to it. Also, the skyline is starting to spread out along the Schuylkill. This and CHOP Tower, along with the rest of the phases of that project, will add buildings along the Shuylkill.
-SLS International: South Broad Street between City Hall and South, with a height node at Broad and Washington, should be among the densest corridors in the city. 590' at Broad and Spruce is super-reasonable given its location on South Broad. This also gives Philly an opportunity to expand its skyline southward.
-500 Walnut: personally, I think the buildings behind Independence Hall make for a beautiful setback. One might see, as I do, colonial Philadelphia and modern Philadelphia represented. Speaking of beautiful, 500 Walnut is a beautifully-designed building.
All of these buildings will add to the vibrancy of Philly, which already has one of America's best downtown experiences. All of these buildings also convert inactive parcels into taxpaying units, and we all know that Philly is in need of tax revenues.
Admittedly, I am a height fanatic. I LOVE seeing tall structures being erected in Philly. I would love to see all of Market West at its maximum height. Height east of Broad and north along Broad are also things that I dream of. In fact, instead of trying to transform the Gallery, why not knock it down and redevelop it into high-rises at street-level? There could always be an underground component. Whenever SEPTA's Powelton Yard and Amtrak's Penn Coach Yard get capped, I would love to see height (transitional, of course, due to the proximity of Powelton Village and Mantua) behind 30th Street. Hell, I hope that I will get to see the day that 34th Street holds some of Philly's most expensive real estate. Finally, I would love to see tall buildings in Camden. Camden is to Philly as Jersey City is to New York.
The only place that I don't wish for much height is along Columbus Boulevard. Buildings to the scale of One Water Street lined along Columbus Boulevard and Delaware Avenue would really transform the area by the Delaware River.
Find an aerial view of center city from before Liberty Place. Crossing the Delaware used to give a feeling of mass & great depth. City as far as the eye could see. I have no problem with mid-rises east of city hall but west of Olde City.
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