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The children do -not- have the "right" to disregard someone else's father's demands about that someone else. YOUR child does not have the "right" to disregard MY rules about MY children. Your child can certainly do as he pleases - but the moment he steps on MY family's toes, he has crossed the line.
Your rights end, where my rights begin. That is called civilized behavior. If *I* am boorish with my own children - as long as I'm not breaking any laws, it is not YOUR child's place to challenge me. And it is not YOUR place to encourage your child to do so, nor is it your place to pretend not to notice when your child makes such an attempt.
Your child should respect the fact that I *am* the girl's father, and as such, MY rules about MY daughter are not up for discussion, by HIM. He is not entitled to a vote; my family is not a democracy, or a government entity. He doesn't have to agree with my rules about my daughter, but he does not have the "right" to voice a dissenting opinion to -me- about them, nor does he have the "right" to encourage my daughter to break them.
There is no law that forbids a father from telling his daughter she isn't allowed to date someone. If I was the father, and forbid my daughter from dating someone - then that's between me and my daughter. You - and your son - are not invited to the discussion.
Also - don't forget we're hearing only the son's mother's side of the story. What she's telling us, is her perception of the truth. For all we know, the girl's father has good reason to forbid her from seeing him. Maybe he's a lousy kid. Maybe he keeps her from her studies and she's failing some of her classes. Maybe he hangs out with a crowd involved in drugs and drinking. Maybe he's been pressuring her to have sex (remember she's only 16). Maybe SHE doesn't want to have anything to do with him anymore, and she's using dad as an excuse. Maybe SHE is into drugs, and dad needs to get her away from her comfort zone so she can shape up. We don't know a damned thing about this situation, other than what the son's mother is telling us.
Of course the child has that right. Because you have no authority to discipline him. You can discipline your child for e-mailing the boy in the hypothetical, but you wouldn't be able to discipline the other boy. So if you can't discipline him, why should he respect you blindly?
It is the child's place because it involves one of his friends. I don't think the first child should randomly walk up to you and call you out on it.
How can you say your rights end where mine begin, when you then go on to say that you have the right to tell me what my place is in encouraging my child? That's inconsistent.
You even go so far as to say that we cannot even vocally disagree about it! Gosh, do you have children just to brag about how you control them?
OK, so we're not invited to the discussion. What do you plan to do about it?
And you're right, we don't know the other side, but that doesn't automatically mean you can just assign it to your side.
You're not reading what I'm posting. You're reading what you want to argue against. And what you argue against is not what I'm posting. I'll try this again:
This is about rights, or lack thereof. Your son - does not have any rights, when it comes to my family. There is no law in the USA that grants your minor son any inherent or assigned rights, to anything that has anything to do with my minor daughter.
There are rights assigned by governments, and there are natural rights. Your son has neither, when it comes to my minor daughter. Your son DOES have responsibilities, with regards to my minor daughter, however. Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him. Why? Because she is a minor child, and I am her legal guardian. It is MY right to assign permission, or deny it.
Your son has the right to not like it. That is his one and only right with regards to the matter. He has the right to stand on the sidewalk with a picket sign and protest it, as long as he isn't blocking pedestrian/vehicular traffic. But he does NOT have the right to come to my front door, and demand a damned thing from me or my minor daughter. He also does *not* have the right to send, or respond, to any e-mails sent by my minor daughter, through internet access that belongs to me - and is granted as a *privilege* to my minor daughter, and not as a *right*. I can just take her cell phone away and shut off her internet access, and I, as her father, have the *right* to do that. And your son does not have the *right* to stop me, or to *do* anything about it, other than whine and complain about how it's not fair. He has the right to whine and complain. But that just makes him a whiney little brat, and proves that it was a good idea for me to tell my daughter to keep her distance from your kid.
You're not reading what I'm posting. You're reading what you want to argue against. And what you argue against is not what I'm posting. I'll try this again:
This is about rights, or lack thereof. Your son - does not have any rights, when it comes to my family. There is no law in the USA that grants your minor son any inherent or assigned rights, to anything that has anything to do with my minor daughter.
There are rights assigned by governments, and there are natural rights. Your son has neither, when it comes to my minor daughter. Your son DOES have responsibilities, with regards to my minor daughter, however. Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him. Why? Because she is a minor child, and I am her legal guardian. It is MY right to assign permission, or deny it.
Your son has the right to not like it. That is his one and only right with regards to the matter. He has the right to stand on the sidewalk with a picket sign and protest it, as long as he isn't blocking pedestrian/vehicular traffic. But he does NOT have the right to come to my front door, and demand a damned thing from me or my minor daughter. He also does *not* have the right to send, or respond, to any e-mails sent by my minor daughter, through internet access that belongs to me - and is granted as a *privilege* to my minor daughter, and not as a *right*. I can just take her cell phone away and shut off her internet access, and I, as her father, have the *right* to do that. And your son does not have the *right* to stop me, or to *do* anything about it, other than whine and complain about how it's not fair. He has the right to whine and complain. But that just makes him a whiney little brat, and proves that it was a good idea for me to tell my daughter to keep her distance from your kid.
Erm he does have the right to send or respond to emails sent by your minor daughter. You have the right to cut off her internet to stop her sending emails but he has every right to send them.
This is about rights, or lack thereof. Your son - does not have any rights, when it comes to my family. There is no law in the USA that grants your minor son any inherent or assigned rights, to anything that has anything to do with my minor daughter.
There are rights assigned by governments, and there are natural rights. Your son has neither, when it comes to my minor daughter. Your son DOES have responsibilities, with regards to my minor daughter, however. Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him.
You are mixing up natural and legal rights, seems to me. Marriage is definitely a matter of law. But I am curious, who is the arbiter and determinant of these "natural rights" because as far as I am concerned, you determination is very much up for debate.
You're not reading what I'm posting. You're reading what you want to argue against. And what you argue against is not what I'm posting. I'll try this again:
I am definitely reading what you are posting. I am reading your posts carefully, and what you are arguing for is unlimited, unreasonable control of a parent over a 16 year old daughter, and demanding that others respect that behavior. Now, "respect" can mean "to think highly of, to admire," and it can also mean "to obey." I don't think anyone else has to respect (by EITHER definition) a parent's unlimited, unreasonable control over a teen who is less than 2 years away from being a legally emancipated 18 year old.
Quote:
Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him. Why? Because she is a minor child, and I am her legal guardian. It is MY right to assign permission, or deny it.
Yes, this is true. And in most cases it would be completely appropriate to deny permission to a 16 year old who wishes to get married. BUT, that 16 year old is less than 2 years away from being able to marry anyone she wants without your permission, so I cannot understand why any decent, caring, intelligent parent would be so controlling at this age as to dictate who she can and cannot receive emails and phone calls from. Sure, I guess you have a right to dictate that. But you're stupid as h*e*l*l if you think you OUGHT to do that.
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He also does *not* have the right to send, or respond, to any e-mails sent by my minor daughter, through internet access that belongs to me -
Nope, sorry, you don't own the entire world-wide web. You can deny your daughter access to your own computer and internet access if you choose (again, a stupid choice at her age) If anyone sends her emails, she doesn't need YOUR computer or YOUR internet access to read it. There is no law granting you the right to forbid a person from sending an email to your daughter, unless there is a restraining order. And without proof of physical harm, threats of violence, or other compelling reason, a judge would not issue a restraining order. So at this point, he absolutely DOES have the right to send emails.
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I can just take her cell phone away and shut off her internet access, and I, as her father, have the *right* to do that. And your son does not have the *right* to stop me,
Absolutely true. You have every "right" to do that. But I will reiterate that in most cases, a parent would be stupid to think he OUGHT to do that to a SIXTEEN year old. And of course, she'll just use someone else's computer and phone.
Quote:
And your son does not have the *right* to stop me, or to *do* anything about it, other than whine and complain about how it's not fair. He has the right to whine and complain. But that just makes him a whiney little brat, and proves that it was a good idea for me to tell my daughter to keep her distance from your kid.
And in less than 2 years, when your daughter is emancipated, all YOU will be able to do is whine and complain that your daughter is estranged from you. You will be a whiney little brat, furious that you no longer can control and isolate, and this proves it is a good idea for your daughter to keep her distance from you.
This thread was about how OP's son should handle his particular situation. It has morphed into an argument about parental control in the extreme, filled with anger and indignation that others do not automatically respect your "right" to be a jerk of a parent if you want to be. We can argue about this "right" until we're blue in the face, but I hope that underneath your indignation, you recognize that there is a huge difference between "exercising a right," versus "doing the right thing."
OPs son DOES have a "right" to email the daughter. Is it the "right" thing to do?
The girl's father DOES have a "right" to take away her cellphone and computer. Is it the "right" thing to do?
Clearly not everyone agrees on the answers.
You're not reading what I'm posting. You're reading what you want to argue against. And what you argue against is not what I'm posting. I'll try this again:
This is about rights, or lack thereof. Your son - does not have any rights, when it comes to my family. There is no law in the USA that grants your minor son any inherent or assigned rights, to anything that has anything to do with my minor daughter.
There are rights assigned by governments, and there are natural rights. Your son has neither, when it comes to my minor daughter. Your son DOES have responsibilities, with regards to my minor daughter, however. Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him. Why? Because she is a minor child, and I am her legal guardian. It is MY right to assign permission, or deny it.
Your son has the right to not like it. That is his one and only right with regards to the matter. He has the right to stand on the sidewalk with a picket sign and protest it, as long as he isn't blocking pedestrian/vehicular traffic. But he does NOT have the right to come to my front door, and demand a damned thing from me or my minor daughter. He also does *not* have the right to send, or respond, to any e-mails sent by my minor daughter, through internet access that belongs to me - and is granted as a *privilege* to my minor daughter, and not as a *right*. I can just take her cell phone away and shut off her internet access, and I, as her father, have the *right* to do that. And your son does not have the *right* to stop me, or to *do* anything about it, other than whine and complain about how it's not fair. He has the right to whine and complain. But that just makes him a whiney little brat, and proves that it was a good idea for me to tell my daughter to keep her distance from your kid.
Well said
And happy Mother's Day to all the committed, conscientious Mom's out there doing such an amazing job with their kids
Rights do not equal privileges. No one has the "right" to send e-mail to anyone. A right would be either a natural right - or a legal right. You don't have the -right- to a telephone. It doesn't fall under the category of "rights," either natural or legal. You don't have the "right" to a computer. It doesn't fall under the category of "rights," either natural or legal. None of the things some of you are arguing about are rights. They are privileges, which can be taken away from you, or which can be blocked by your Internet Service Provider, your cell phone provider, a locked front door, the proprietor of the computer store...
Freedom of expression is about the right to express yourself freely on public or government property. It does not extend to a person's e-mail address.
Your rights - have nothing to do with e-mail, cell phones, or someone else's minor daughter who is not within the legal guardianship of your household.
Rights do not equal privileges. No one has the "right" to send e-mail to anyone. A right would be either a natural right - or a legal right. You don't have the -right- to a telephone. It doesn't fall under the category of "rights," either natural or legal. You don't have the "right" to a computer. It doesn't fall under the category of "rights," either natural or legal. None of the things some of you are arguing about are rights. They are privileges, which can be taken away from you, or which can be blocked by your Internet Service Provider, your cell phone provider, a locked front door, the proprietor of the computer store...
Freedom of expression is about the right to express yourself freely on public or government property. It does not extend to a person's e-mail address.
Your rights - have nothing to do with e-mail, cell phones, or someone else's minor daughter who is not within the legal guardianship of your household.
And instead of responding to the substance of my point of view, you're going to argue about what the definition of a "right" is? I don't really care, for the purpose of this discussion, if we call it a right, freedom, privilege, ability, lawfulness, whatever. THAT is not the point of the conversation.
BUT, since you're calling me out on my use of the word "right," let me copy and paste from a legal website:
"right 1) n. an entitlement to something, whether to concepts like justice and due process, or to ownership of property or some interest in property, real or personal."
Yes, I have a right to own a computer. It is not a "privilege" that someone can take away.
I'm not sure if you are arguing just to argue, or if you are seriously that much of a control freak when it comes to parenting? Are you honestly saying that YOU would take away cell phone and computer from a 16 year old?
You're not reading what I'm posting. You're reading what you want to argue against. And what you argue against is not what I'm posting. I'll try this again:
This is about rights, or lack thereof. Your son - does not have any rights, when it comes to my family. There is no law in the USA that grants your minor son any inherent or assigned rights, to anything that has anything to do with my minor daughter.
There are rights assigned by governments, and there are natural rights. Your son has neither, when it comes to my minor daughter. Your son DOES have responsibilities, with regards to my minor daughter, however. Your son is -not- allowed to marry my daughter, unless I give her permission to marry him. Why? Because she is a minor child, and I am her legal guardian. It is MY right to assign permission, or deny it.
Your son has the right to not like it. That is his one and only right with regards to the matter. He has the right to stand on the sidewalk with a picket sign and protest it, as long as he isn't blocking pedestrian/vehicular traffic. But he does NOT have the right to come to my front door, and demand a damned thing from me or my minor daughter. He also does *not* have the right to send, or respond, to any e-mails sent by my minor daughter, through internet access that belongs to me - and is granted as a *privilege* to my minor daughter, and not as a *right*. I can just take her cell phone away and shut off her internet access, and I, as her father, have the *right* to do that. And your son does not have the *right* to stop me, or to *do* anything about it, other than whine and complain about how it's not fair. He has the right to whine and complain. But that just makes him a whiney little brat, and proves that it was a good idea for me to tell my daughter to keep her distance from your kid.
Well said and true.
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