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I've gone over this with you specifically in other bike threads already. I'm not "worried" about anything necessarily. I do think it does nothing but create a hassle for businesses when their unloading zones are done away with for protected lanes that some people use. And more importantly, they legitimately put a strain on emergency vehicles trying to make good time in getting to a call. You know, to potentially save someone's life. Many times every second counts in situations.
And once again, I'm not anti-bike. I own a cannondale caad9-5. I ride often and I love it. I ride to work at times as well. I've been riding since I was a kid and I always will be. I just don't need the city holding my hand because I'm special. Thanks for playing though.
So do you consider paved roads as holding your hand for cars? I still don't get you association with a bike infrastructure with hand holding....or are sidewalks hand holding for pedestrians?
How exactly do bikes put a strain on emergency vehicles? I am guessing cars do not put this "strain" on emergency vehicles?
As for problems with loading and unloading zones, not every street needs to be bike friendly, it is better to put them on long roads where there needs to be a separation between car and bike, and there are a number of streets in NYC that could simply use the road as a shared road making it easier for loading docks and bikes to coexist.
So I am not sure I buy your examples in the problem with the city increasing its bike infrastructure....
Last edited by urbanlife78; 04-03-2012 at 09:24 PM..
So do you consider paved roads as holding your hand for cars? I still don't get you association with a bike infrastructure with hand holding....
Paved roads are great. They're good for anybody looking to commute. That's what I use to ride on. I never talked bad about paved roads.
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How exactly do bikes put a strain on emergency vehicles? I am guessing cars do not put this "strain" on emergency vehicles?
When you've got a big ass fire truck trying to make an already tight turn on a small downtown side street; having another lane being taken away makes it even all that much more difficult. I've seen an engine have to back up and shimmy their way around the protected lane on Grand Street. Hang out down that way long enough one day and I guarantee you'll see it too.
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As for problems with loading and unloading zones, not every street needs to be bike friendly, it is better to put them on long roads where there needs to be a separation between car and bike, and there are a number of streets in NYC that could simply use the road as a shared road making it easier for loading docks and bikes to coexist.
We're talking about protected lanes on major avenues right? There are businesses all along major avenues. That's mainly where they are. And for the record, there are for the most part not loading docks for what we're talking about (I thought you knew more than anyone about NYC?)
Paved roads are great. They're good for anybody looking to commute. That's what I use to ride on. I never talked bad about paved roads.
So when you bike across a bridge, you bike in traffic cause taking the bike lane would be having your hand held? Do you despise the sidewalks for giving pedestrians a separate area? Should we paint lanes on the roads? Seriously, I still don't see how a bike infrastructure is considered hand holding?
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When you've got a big ass fire truck trying to make an already tight turn on a small downtown side street; having another lane being taken away makes it even all that much more difficult. I've seen an engine have to back up and shimmy their way around the protected lane on Grand Street. Hang out down that way long enough one day and I guarantee you'll see it too.
I never said bike lanes have to be completely separate from the roads, often times the application of paint on the road is good enough. When I bike I take up a lane for my safety rather than a side of the road. Having a physical barrier is not always needed, and if it is designed well, problems like this won't happen....but guess what, bike infrastructure is cheap compared to cars and something like this can actually be fixed easily. Have you ever seen a fire truck stuck in traffic? I guess that isn't as much of a problem for you....but those pesky bike lanes are??
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We're talking about protected lanes on major avenues right? There are businesses all along major avenues. That's mainly where they are. And for the record, there are for the most part not loading docks for what we're talking about (I thought you knew more than anyone about NYC?)
So I am guessing there are no parked cars along those major avenues either?? I would assume that would get in the way just the same...again, I am not saying every road needs a separate barrier that separates bikes from the road, often times it can be as much as moving over parked cars one lane and creating a bike lane between the parked cars and the sidewalk, or a bike lane can be created on the far right lane that would simply require proper marking with paint to make it safer for bikes....and of course not every avenue needs to have that, the city could do this for two or three of them heading north and south in Manhattan.
Plus there is more to NYC than just Manhattan, the burroughs themselves would benefit more from having a separate bike system that makes it easier to commute on bike and get to and from Manhattan....overall Manhattan is fairly easy on bike as long as a biker is being responsible and making sure they are visible.
And I am pretty sure I said I know more about NYC than most people...not sure I directed that towards just people living in NYC or not...but you seem to want to dwell on it, so yeah, I know more about NYC than you cause that seems to annoy you....
No one know's how great a percentage share of NYC's residents will bike. What we do know is as demographics continue to change and infrastructure is built, that share increases. The more bikers, the less drivers and people on the subway/bus.
New bike infrastructure is not just laid wherever. The DOT goes great length to plan it. Loading docks are usually incorporated into certain zones, last time I checked the existing businesses along bike lanes operate just fine. ER vehicles are no less mobile with less lanes either way they must still deal with traffic. If firetrucks can navigate Manhattan south of 14th as it stands, I wouldn't worry about protected lanes on wider streets like 1st and 2nd Ave.
The pros greatly outweigh the cons. NYC as a whole will benefit from the traffic calming aspects at the very least.
So when you bike across a bridge, you bike in traffic cause taking the bike lane would be having your hand held? Do you despise the sidewalks for giving pedestrians a separate area? Should we paint lanes on the roads? Seriously, I still don't see how a bike infrastructure is considered hand holding?
If it wasn't illegal, then I would have no problem biking across the bridge. However the bridges are completely different and shouldn't even be compared. Your sidewalk analogy might be the dumbest thing I've heard you say yet, and I'm not even gonna bother with that one.
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I never said bike lanes have to be completely separate from the roads, often times the application of paint on the road is good enough. When I bike I take up a lane for my safety rather than a side of the road. Having a physical barrier is not always needed, and if it is designed well, problems like this won't happen....but guess what, bike infrastructure is cheap compared to cars and something like this can actually be fixed easily. Have you ever seen a fire truck stuck in traffic? I guess that isn't as much of a problem for you....but those pesky bike lanes are??
The entire bike-friendly movement is based around protected lanes as much as possible. It's addressed in the OP even. The painted lanes are useless, and provide a false sense of security at best. And yes, I've seen emergency vehicles stuck in traffic. Many times. That's the point. These protected lanes unnecessarily add to the response times on top of that.
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So I am guessing there are no parked cars along those major avenues either?? I would assume that would get in the way just the same...again, I am not saying every road needs a separate barrier that separates bikes from the road, often times it can be as much as moving over parked cars one lane and creating a bike lane between the parked cars and the sidewalk, or a bike lane can be created on the far right lane that would simply require proper marking with paint to make it safer for bikes....and of course not every avenue needs to have that, the city could do this for two or three of them heading north and south in Manhattan.
Again, we're talking about sectioned off lanes, not painted lines. But to answer your question, delivery trucks can currently double park and drop off their shipment real quick if there are cars in the way. You can't really do that with the closest lane in taken away for some bikers.
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Plus there is more to NYC than just Manhattan, the burroughs themselves would benefit more from having a separate bike system that makes it easier to commute on bike and get to and from Manhattan....overall Manhattan is fairly easy on bike as long as a biker is being responsible and making sure they are visible.
Thank you for informing me about how there is more to new york than manhattan. I appreciate that. And by the way it's not "burroughs" there Doctor NYC. That was a junky author from the 40's.
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And I am pretty sure I said I know more about NYC than most people...not sure I directed that towards just people living in NYC or not...but you seem to want to dwell on it, so yeah, I know more about NYC than you cause that seems to annoy you....
Granted I don't care enough to literally go and try to find your quote, but you straight up said that you knew more about this city than most people including people who have spent their whole lives here. So yeah, I call you out on it when I see certain things that you post. Like "burroughs".
If it wasn't illegal, then I would have no problem biking across the bridge. However the bridges are completely different and shouldn't even be compared. Your sidewalk analogy might be the dumbest thing I've heard you say yet, and I'm not even gonna bother with that one.
The entire bike-friendly movement is based around protected lanes as much as possible. It's addressed in the OP even. The painted lanes are useless, and provide a false sense of security at best. And yes, I've seen emergency vehicles stuck in traffic. Many times. That's the point. These protected lanes unnecessarily add to the response times on top of that.
Again, we're talking about sectioned off lanes, not painted lines. But to answer your question, delivery trucks can currently double park and drop off their shipment real quick if there are cars in the way. You can't really do that with the closest lane in taken away for some bikers.
Thank you for informing me about how there is more to new york than manhattan. I appreciate that. And by the way it's not "burroughs" there Doctor NYC. That was a junky author from the 40's.
Granted I don't care enough to literally go and try to find your quote, but you straight up said that you knew more about this city than most people including people who have spent their whole lives here. So yeah, I call you out on it when I see certain things that you post. Like "burroughs".
Again, none of your post does anything to make anyone feel there shouldn't be a bike infrastructure in NYC...plan and simple.
Oh and the sidewalk analogy was about this desire that anything paved should be for the cars, when we are talking about making a city more accessible to bike, making it easier to commute by bike. The amount of money that is being spent on the car will always crush the number needed for a great infrastructure, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
As for painting roads, that is your opinion. Painting roads and putting up signs are used to increase awareness that such roads are major bike share roads. In Manhattan, it should be considered that almost every road is basically a bike share road.
Well it is fine if you don't care enough to go find the post, just as long as it keeps to mildly annoy you, then that makes me happy, thank you for that.
Availableusername, your statement about protected bike lanes increasing 911 response time is BS. For one there aren't enough bike lane in NYC to create this situation. If anything reducing the number of lanes on very wide urban streets like 2nd Ave creates more order and yes less traffic and speeding. Second, we are not the pioneers of the protected bike lanes. There are cities in Europe with narrow streets galore that have been using them for years without issue.
Loading docks are designated along protected bike lanes. Cars cannot park at these locations or they will be fined. Works the same way they would be on the sidewall curb.
The biggest opposition to our citywide bike industry is ignorant NIMBYs. Standing in the way of progress as usual.
Availableusername, your statement about protected bike lanes increasing 911 response time is BS. For one there aren't enough bike lane in NYC to create this situation. If anything reducing the number of lanes on very wide urban streets like 2nd Ave creates more order and yes less traffic and speeding. Second, we are not the pioneers of the protected bike lanes. There are cities in Europe with narrow streets galore that have been using them for years without issue.
These situations do indeed happen in certain parts of the city (see my Grand Street example). If you ask any firefighter or even medic/EMT, they would tell you you're completely wrong. And reducing lanes is gonna create less traffic? People will be less hostile while driving? This isn't Europe, you can stop with that.
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Loading docks are designated along protected bike lanes. Cars cannot park at these locations or they will be fined. Works the same way they would be on the sidewall curb.
There really are not a whole lot of loading docks in this city outside of industrial areas or less dense neighborhoods. I dunno where you guys are getting that from. Unless you're talking about office buildings, which is not what I'm referring to.
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The biggest opposition to our citywide bike industry is ignorant NIMBYs. Standing in the way of progress as usual.
Everybody who thinks the bike movement is silly aren't only against it when it affects them. Lots of people think it's unnecessary as a whole. So they're not NIMBYs. You simply think that because you clearly have your little vision of how the city should look and you have your blinders on. I've seen your posts, fella.
These situations do indeed happen in certain parts of the city (see my Grand Street example). If you ask any firefighter or even medic/EMT, they would tell you you're completely wrong. And reducing lanes is gonna create less traffic? People will be less hostile while driving? This isn't Europe, you can stop with that.
I still disagree. Again, even if the bike lane somehow slowed the ER vehicle, what about taking the next street over... There are not that many protected lanes in NYC. Of course since protected bike lanes do not make it harder, no need to do this.
Less lanes mean less space. Drivers become more concerned about hitting things. It's proven, read about narrowing/lessening lanes and traffic calming and get back to me.
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ere really are not a whole lot of loading docks in this city outside of industrial areas or less dense neighborhoods. I dunno where you guys are getting that from. Unless you're talking about office buildings, which is not what I'm referring to.
It's as simple as putting a sign reading: No Parking, Loading Area instead of: Parking. They can even be timed. Sheesh I see it everywhere.
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Everybody who thinks the bike movement is silly aren't only against it when it affects them. Lots of people think it's unnecessary as a whole. So they're not NIMBYs. You simply think that because you clearly have your little vision of how the city should look and you have your blinders on. I've seen your posts, fella.
Glad the average Joe knows more about the city needs then the Urban Planners, spare me... Tell me how many site surveys have you conducted to defend your theory?
I still disagree. Again, even if the bike lane somehow slowed the ER vehicle, what about taking the next street over... There are not that many protected lanes in NYC. Of course since protected bike lanes do not make it harder, no need to do this.
Yeah just take another street. Because that takes a really quick amount of time in this city. And once again, yes, they do make it more difficult. It's a pretty simply matter of physics.
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Less lanes mean less space. Drivers become more concerned about hitting things. It's proven, read about narrowing/lessening lanes and traffic calming and get back to me.
Articles written by questionable people with an agenda mean nothing to me. I've driven with taxi drivers, family, and even alone driving around narrowed streets. In every case, drivers (including myself) get more hostile and aggressive when more vehicles have to be squeezed into a tighter space.
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It's as simple as putting a sign reading: No Parking, Loading Area instead of: Parking. They can even be timed. Sheesh I see it everywhere.
You guys keep talking about loading docks. Those are not loading docks.
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Glad the average Joe knows more about the city needs then the Urban Planners, spare me... Tell me how many site surveys have you conducted to defend your theory?
Ahhhh and it comes down to the good old nanny state telling us what's good for us because us average joes don't have the ability to know what is right. Thank the good lord we have our wonderful jannette sadik-khan to show us the way.
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