French is drastically deteriorating in Montréal, and its suburbs are anglicizing: Soon an Anglo-city? (job market, middle school)

[netwit]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

It may be a sin to say this, but I think this thread is ridiculous. The way I interpret the OP, a Francophone who learns English will stop speaking French and become a traitor to Quebec. I write this after having drunk a lot of beer, so my judgement may be off.

And I thought having a couple of beers might help instead of reading the few posts I've read here stone cold sober.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

It may be a sin to say this, but I think this thread is ridiculous. The way I interpret the OP, a Francophone who learns English will stop speaking French and become a traitor to Quebec.

With that little faith in the strength of ones culture you can see why everything has to be totally French with draconian language legislation like bill101 and language police to prop up the cultures evident tenuous position . =
The infamous bill101= Légis Québec

Along with the OQLF (language police)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office...fran%C3%A7aise
I'd be embarrassed if my Anglo culture needed such legislation to maintain its existence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 2ner

The term Anglo may mean different things on each side of the U.S./Canada border. In Quebec, (I think) it means anyone who has English as their predominant language, independent of race or ethnicity, although depending on context it can also refer to WASP / Brit-types. In the U.S., the term has been used to describe English-speaking white Americans vis-à-vis Hispanic Americans. In Detroit, the Anglo (non-Hispanic white) population has grown a smidgen between 2010 and 2016 (the *white* population is higher if you include Latinos - but these are not Anglos) - so, as someone has already posted, there is a renaissance in the making. However, the predominant demographic in Detroit are still full or partial Ébonicophones (for lack of a better linguistic-based term - most blacks / African-Americans are bidialectal) at 79.7% of the total (2016).

*You guys* aren't plentiful enough to take over... well, *you* could do it, but it would be a stretch.

A better strategy is to stay in Quebec, stay faithful to French, be so-darned appealing as a people that others want to join your group, and have more babies.

That's pretty much what we're trying to do. But as I said... it's generally two steps forward, one step back.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jambo101

With that little faith in the strength of ones culture you can see why everything has to be totally French with draconian language legislation like bill101 and language police to prop up the cultures evident tenuous position . =
The infamous bill101= Légis Québec

Along with the OQLF (language police)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office...fran%C3%A7aise
I'd be embarrassed if my Anglo culture needed such legislation to maintain its existence.

As I said before: I have unwavering faith in Ian Thorpe's ability to swim, and even swim very fast. Provided his feet are not encased in cement.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

It may be a sin to say this, but I think this thread is ridiculous. The way I interpret the OP, a Francophone who learns English will stop speaking French and become a traitor to Quebec. I write this after having drunk a lot of beer, so my judgement may be off.

Is that you Mouldy? I thought you were living a life of temperance and righteousness?

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

It may be a sin to say this, but I think this thread is ridiculous. The way I interpret the OP, a Francophone who learns English will stop speaking French and become a traitor to Quebec. I write this after having drunk a lot of beer, so my judgement may be off.

Yes, it's a sin to say this.


There are multiple factores that need to be taken into account when judging the future evolution of French:


- Migration, inluding intraprovincial and international migration

- Share of native French and English speakers in % relative to the total population, as well as of everyday speakers

- The use of English in the working force
- The use of English in education, especially at university and CEGEP level
- The use of English in etertainment

- The progression of English in a globalized world
- trends in linguistic tranferts



Linguistic transfers among francophones towards English are only ONE factor that contribute to the decline of French, among MULTIPLE factors. It's the sum of all factors listed above that ultimately leads to anglicisation. The two most important factors are migration and working language.



No, francophones who learn English do not automatically switch to English, but it opens the door and increases the probability of switching to everyday English speakers if other conditions are met that are very present in Montréal: - Working mainly in English. - Marrying an anglophone, etc.

Most francophones who have switched towards English, have previously worked mainly in English and/or were surrounded by a majority of English speakers in the Anglo enclaves of Montréal. The weaker French is in Montréal, that means, the lower the total share of native francophones is, the more increases the probability to switch to English, both among allophones and francophones. And the share of francophones is below 50% on the Island and therefore very low.



https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...-g3.9a-eng.htm
These are future linguistic projections by StatisticsCanada for 2036, they show that French will continue to decline and approach merely 42%...What is even worse is, that in the 2030s, French will be overtaken by the allophone language group on Montréal Island. In the rest of the metro area, French is dramatically decreasing, while English is rising, both as a native and everyday language.



This is going to shift the balance more in favor of English.

Originally Posted by jambo101

With that little faith in the strength of ones culture you can see why everything has to be totally French with draconian language legislation like bill101 and language police to prop up the cultures evident tenuous position . =
The infamous bill101= Légis Québec

Along with the OQLF (language police)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office...fran%C3%A7aise
I'd be embarrassed if my Anglo culture needed such legislation to maintain its existence.

I was proud of the original Bill 101. Now this law has become too weak.
Though, I'm still more proud of Bill 101 than any other Canadian law.


OK. Jambo, if you feel like this, I gotta tell ya, that you have to feel embarrassed now


The anglophones in Québec also have fought for legislation and got their legislation to maintain their existence. So the Anglo culture does also have laws and rules and the entire West Island community was fighting for legislation in favor of English and finally got their laws that support English. And nearly all Anglophones make use of their English laws and English rights and feel more entitled than the francophones.


So, here from Bill 101:
1° les projets de loi sont imprimés, publiés, adoptés et sanctionnés en français et en anglais, et les lois sont imprimées et publiées dans ces deux langues
= LAWS MUST BE ALSO IN ENGLISH

L’Office doit reconnaître, à sa demande:1° une municipalité, lorsque plus de la moitié des résidents de son territoire sont de langue maternelle anglaise;
2° un organisme relevant de l’autorité d’une ou de plusieurs municipalités et participant à l’administration de leur territoire, lorsque chacune de ces municipalités est déjà reconnue;
3° un établissement de services de santé et de services sociaux visé à l’Annexe, lorsqu’il fournit ses services à des personnes en majorité d’une langue autre que le français.
= ANGLOPHONES HAVE THE RIGHT TO GET SERVICES IN ENGLISH IF THEY CONSTITUTE THE MAJORITY AND QUÉBEC MUST OFFER THEM SERVICES IN ENGLISH
+ QUÉBEC MUST PAY MONEY TO ENGLISH SCHOOLS AND MUST PAY MONEY TO McGill

+ Q introduced bilingual communes


Your whole Dorval community makes excessively use of their English laws and without the English rights granted by the Canadian Constitution and Bill 101, your English community would have disappeared. There are federal language laws that not only grant services in English, but even make in mandatory alongside with French, so don't act like French was the only language that has language legislation in Canada. English has language legislation in all provinces.


So, yes you also need legislation and by your own logics you shall feel embarrassed now.


+ Do you even know that Anglo culture has only become so big because under British rule no other languages than English were allowed? So your Anglo culture only became big by suppressing and banning other languages, and even nowadays there are Canadian English-mandatory laws and even Bill 101 grants rights to anglophones.

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

I read on Wikipedia that 98.1 percent of people in Saguenay spoke French as their mother tongue, and 0.9 percent spoke English as their mother tongue. Am I supposed to believe that the Anglophones dominate the Francophones in Saguenay? Ridiculous!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

I read on Wikipedia that 98.1 percent of people in Saguenay spoke French as their mother tongue, and 0.9 percent spoke English as their mother tongue. Am I supposed to believe that the Anglophones dominate the Francophones in Saguenay? Ridiculous!

Has the effect of the beer worn off yet?

[2ner]

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/survey-a...cted-1.3976401

Published Saturday, June 16, 2018 10:31AM EDT

A survey conducted for the Association for Canadian Studies and the Quebec Community Groups Network shows that anglophones and francophones have different views when it comes to questions like whether the French language is protected effectively.

The study's findings show that 88 per cent of anglophones feel that the French language is protected effectively, compared to 40 per cent of francophones. It's far from the only divergance in opinion.

The poll, conducted by Leger Marketing, also showed that 55 per cent of francophones feel that anglophones act like a majority in the province. Only 14 per cent of anglophones have the same view.

80 per cent of anglophones think that their group can speak French satisfactorily, while 48 per cent of francophones feel they speak English satisfactorily.

The two groups do agree that anglophones have made important contributions to Quebec's society.

(1,226 people were interviewed for the survey; including 871 francophones, 275 anglophones, and 106 allophones.)

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Has the effect of the beer worn off yet?

Yes. I'm bowing out of this thread. It has gone too far.