Mac Groveland/Highland Schools ..Catholic our only option?? (Ramsey, Randolph: crime, neighborhoods)

[oppawaits]

Looking at achievement scores and demographics, it appears that the local elementary schools in the neighborhoods perform at a higher level and are significantly less diverse than the assigned middle and high schools. Do parents routinely enroll their children in parochial school (catholic) at the seventh grade level while using Horace Mann (as an example) for elementary? Or do most families commit to the parish schools early on and stay enrolled throughout high school?

Secondly, can anyone speak to the difficulty of gaining admission in the local catholic schools? Specifically, Nativity, St. Marks and Cretin-Durham. I have arranged tours but I am curious to what challenges may lie ahead.

Still trying to avoid a brutal commute to the suburbs!!

Thanks

[aus1ander]

I can't speak for the Catholic angle to this, but we are tentatively planning to send our son (still a couple years away) to Horace Mann, which is one of the top elementary schools in St Paul, followed by (hopefully) admission to SPA. I believe most people make that transition after 5th grade, but I guess it depends on the school.

The lack of diversity within Horace Mann is just a reflection of the neighborhood in general, but we see more minorities moving here every year. We are a minority family ourselves, but the lack of diversity does not really bother us (I grew up going to a public school where I was the ONLY minority).

Feel free to PM me if you have any other general questions about the neighborhood. If you do choose to live in the area, I'm confident you will grow to love it as much as we do.

[Family of five]

This is a good question. We live in Mac Groveland and send our kids to Nativity.

I do know of many families who do public K-5 and then move their kids in 6th grade to one of the Catholic schools, Saint Paul Academy, Twin Cities Academy, Open World Learning Community or Great River School.

St. Marks is very small - I can't imagine having any trouble getting in.

Nativity is very large (4 sections of each grade K-5, then the class sizes get slightly larger with 3 sections of 6-8) and is a phenomenal school. The resources are outstanding and the school has incredible financial support from the community. You won't find a better principal anywhere. It can be hard to get in some years, especially if there is a very large number of siblings. They can allow up to 99 kids for Kindergarten and some years there may be 70 siblings. It varies year to year, though. If you are a parishioner that will put you up higher on the list. However, I haven't heard of a waiting list for a few years, so I think your chances of getting in are probably pretty good.

Cretin-Derham chooses students from it's feeder schools first, so Nativity, Holy Spirit, St. Marks, Highland Catholic, and St. Thomas More. They also give preference to kids with parents and grandparents who are alum, and siblings of current students. I know plenty of students who went to other schools or didn't have alum or siblings and got in, though. I heard once that they admit about 50% of their applicants, but I am not sure if that is true - that would be a great question to ask when you visit!

Most of the families who use Catholic schools start in preschool or Kindergarten and continue with Catholic education through high school.

Hope that helps!

[cathedralhill1]

My son went to Horace Mann and my daughter currently attends. The reason the middle schools are less diverse may have something to do with families moving to private at these grades, but also has to do with the fact that middle schools are much larger with attendance areas that encompass the far less white elementary schools along with the more white. Even from Horace Mann where families really value education, I can't think of a single one that moved to private in 6th. Most everyone went on to Highland Middle. Furthermore, the test scores at Highland for white students are actually quite good; I think this fact is lost when looking at averages at middle school.

Frankly, Horace Mann is such a great school I'm not sure why anyone in the attendance area bothers with private. Save your money until you feel it is really necessary. The same probably goes for Randolph Heights as well.

[Family of five]

Highland Middle is a better school than Ramsey. It is clearly safer. Families (who are currently at one of the SPPS) who exercise school choice often choose Highland. We feed into Ramsey, so families in my area who exercise school choice often choose not to attend Ramsey.

[cathedralhill1]

Family of 5, you have opted out of the public school system, so I don't know what makes you an expert on Ramsey. This kind of gossip by the Mac/Groveland parents is one of the troubles with Ramsey. Ramsey lies smack in the middle of the wealthiest attendance area of the city--if the families who lived there would actually attend the school it would go a long, long way to improving the environment of the school.

By the way, my son does attend Ramsey and his safety has not been challenged so far. There are still lots of good teachers at the school and he is learning. He has made friends with lots of other nice, normal kids. We did talk about trying for Capital Hill next year, but he wasn't interested in leaving. Yes, I would like to see better discipline, but I can understand the challenges and I think the administration is working hard to improve it.

[idlemellow]

Joining this thread, for families committed to public all the way through in St Paul (and assuming that using school choice to mix up the options is not possible), what pathway would you choose?

Horace Mann - Highland - Highland
Groveland - Ramsey - Central
Randolph- Ramsey - Central

My impression is that people prefer Central over Highland, but this information might be out of date.

[Family of five]

I don't think that stating a fact is gossiping. I also don't think I am an expert on Ramsey. However, the facts are that an incident at Ramsey is in the crime report almost every Villager, and several teachers voluntarily left Ramsey this past fall. My anecdotal evidence is that I have heard from Ramsey parents that disruptive behavior, foul language, bullying, and disrespect towards teachers is common at Ramsey. I have heard the opposite from parents at Highland.

I am very glad to hear that your son is doing well at Ramsey, and I know that there are many dedicated teachers there and that the administration is trying to turn things around. It benefits all of us if Ramsey improves. I applaud your defense of Ramsey - if more parents speak highly of Ramsey and share the positive experiences that there kids are having that may encourage more families to attend.

I used to teach 6th, 7th, and 8th grades, so have a strong opinion about what a quality middle school education should look like and my expectations for how students should behave are very high.

I agree, if all of the families in the attendance area attended, it would go a long way to improving the environment of the school. However, we have an incredible array of school choices here in Saint Paul, and unfortunately for Ramsey, many of them offer an educational environment that is superior to Ramsey's. It is what it is. That doesn't mean that it will always be, but this is what we have today.

[cathedralhill1]

I apologize, gossip was probably too strong a word, but anecdotal seems close to what I was trying to say. I still think a lot of what you say is anecdotal. I have no idea about the crime reports in the Villager. I read the Villager and I have never seen that, but I will certainly look harder in the future. True and sad about the teachers; I just hope it has stabilized.

[Family of five]

Originally Posted by cathedralhill1

I apologize, gossip was probably too strong a word, but anecdotal seems close to what I was trying to say. I still think a lot of what you say is anecdotal. I have no idea about the crime reports in the Villager. I read the Villager and I have never seen that, but I will certainly look harder in the future. True and sad about the teachers; I just hope it has stabilized.

I hope so, too.

And, I meant to write "their" instead of "there." Oops.

I wish your son continued success at Ramsey .