Mac Groveland/Highland Schools ..Catholic our only option?? (St. Paul, Roseville: 2015, how much)
Minneapolis - St. PaulTwin Cities
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I apologize, gossip was probably too strong a word, but anecdotal seems close to what I was trying to say. I still think a lot of what you say is anecdotal. I have no idea about the crime reports in the Villager. I read the Villager and I have never seen that, but I will certainly look harder in the future. True and sad about the teachers; I just hope it has stabilized.
In the most recent Villager (March 4), here is what it says, "An 11 year-old boy was suspended for bringing a knife to Ramsey Middle School at 1:29 p.m. Tuesday, February 24."
Unfortunately, there is something similar to this in almost every issue of the Villager, for at least the past two years. Very sad .
Looking at achievement scores and demographics, it appears that the local elementary schools in the neighborhoods perform at a higher level and are significantly less diverse than the assigned middle and high schools. Do parents routinely enroll their children in parochial school (catholic) at the seventh grade level while using Horace Mann (as an example) for elementary? Or do most families commit to the parish schools early on and stay enrolled throughout high school?
Secondly, can anyone speak to the difficulty of gaining admission in the local catholic schools? Specifically, Nativity, St. Marks and Cretin-Durham. I have arranged tours but I am curious to what challenges may lie ahead.
Still trying to avoid a brutal commute to the suburbs!!
Thanks
You've already gotten some good responses but let me add my thoughts. There's no reason you have to go the Catholic School route unless you want to. I have two kids at Groveland Park Elementary. You really can't go wrong with Horace Mann, Randolph Heights or Groveland Park elementary schools. They're all very good, all have great family support and harken back to a more innocent school experience.
We have another daughter who started Middle School this year and she's at Twin Cities Academy. We toured Ramsey and didn't hate it, or love it. To me it was just a massive, inner city, Middle School, like the one I attended years ago. Our oldest is a dreamer, an average student, and not a self starter. My recollection of this type of school was that the kids who were getting straight A's an academically competitive got plenty of attention. The kids who were failing got plenty of attention to get them up to speed to pass the standardized tests. The kids in the middle though, like myself, and my oldest daughter, who are B and C students were able to slide by without doing much of anything so long as you weren't a problem for the teachers. I thought it was great that I never had to put any effort into school when I was 13 y/o, but today I wish I would have been pushed, so we chose a different path for our oldest. We toured Laura Jeffrey Academy on Grand/Snelling and we wanted to like it. It's all girls and uniformed. We thought there might be some value on those things at that age? The tour didn't do it for us though. It felt like art camp. We toured TCA (Twin Cities Academy) and just knew it was the right spot for us. Small class sizes, small school, tight knit, no slipping through the cracks and coasting by, uniforms, high behavioral standards, a High School to transition into after Middle School, etc. It's housed in the old Sacred Heart Catholic School building and very much feels like a Catholic school, without the religion or pricetag.
There was much debate among the outgoing 5th grade parents last year at Groveland Park. The most well off, or those with only one child seemed to prefer SPA. It's the most prestigious. Others went to Minnehaha Academy, which is also a very good private school and prestigious in it's own right, it's just not SPA. Then there was the rest of us who debated between Ramsey and charter schools like TCA, Nova, Capital Hill, Laura Jeffrey Academy, Great River School, et al. We live near Capital Hill, but our oldest isn't an outstanding student and they have no High School, so in 3 years we'd be facing the same decisions again and potentially breaking her from her friends...again. Nova is damn near impossible to get into and from the sounds of it, it's too rigorous for what we want for our 12 y/o.
There are/were some real diehard Ramsey supporters who were a little miffed with us that we opted out. Some of those love it and some have since had a change of heart and left Ramsey. When my oldest toured TCA her hosts were two girls from our neighborhood who had both started at Ramsey and transferred out mid-year. This year, as a parent host for potential students at TCA I am amazed at how many people from our side of the city at schools like Horace Mann, Randolph Heights, Groveland Park, St Anthony Park, French Immersion and Chelsea Heights are trying to get into TCA. Highland Park Middle School and Murray, both definitely have better reputations than Ramsey at this moment.
Moving on to High School, St Paul Central is more highly regarded than Highland Park and Central is actually one of the top schools in the state. The trick is being in the IB program so that you're not dealing with the low performing students and some of the distractions that come with that. If your kids are in the IB program at Central, they will likely get a better education than you would ever get at Cretin Derham Hall. I know kids who transferred from Central to CDH and we're almost a grade ahead when they got there.
Now, CDH (Cretin Derham Hall) does prefer the kids applying to come out of their feeder system and once in the feeder system there will be pressure to continue on the Catholic School path. They do take kids who don't come out of the feeder system though. My unofficial observation is they especially like minority kids from this group, especially if you play a sport at a high level. Theater, band, art, civic participation, all of these will help you get into CDH too if you didn't come through the feeder system, but especially sports .
The nice things about CDH (and it is a school were considering for High School!) are the network of CDH alums in St Paul and it's pipeline to University of St Thomas and St Johns. It's jaw dropping in St Paul how many people in the local business community and politics are CDH grads. It's like a secret handshake. I've also heard CDH parents not-so-jokingly say "CDH, where the University of St Thomas is your worst case scenario.". So it's great knowing you're next to assured of getting into UST if you go to CDH.
You're getting lot's of good stuff in this thread and the good news is you have lot's of good options, good luck.
Last edited by Mason3000; 03-18-2015 at 10:42 PM..
Very well thought out post Mason3000. I can see where you're coming from about matching the student to the school. While my son is doing ok at Ramsey I have doubts about whether my daughter could hack it. I started on the near impossible task of trying to get her into Capital Hill this year even though she isn't done with Mann.
Your neighbors were likely die hard about their support for Ramsey mainly because they know what can happen when the neighbors actually support the local public school. Highland didn't have such a great reputation a few years ago, but word on the street says (yes, totally anecdotal) that it turned a corner when the parents from the good elementary schools started sending their kids there. I've heard this a lot at Horace Mann where nobody used to matriculate to Highland, but now most do. It was a conscious, organized effort by the parents, not a random happening. More French Immersion parents sent their kids to Ramsey this year than previous years, and hopefully they will report back positively to prospective parents so this trend can continue.
I certainly envy the school climate you have at TCA. One thing about TCA that I would like to point out however is that the achievement isn't particularly high on standardized tests. Sure, the averages look good, but the school has far more white kids than the other middle schools. Here's a shocker--no 6th grade black students at TCA passed the math portion of the MCA last year--not a single one--and the white kids were significantly lower performing than those at Murray, Ramsey or Highland. It makes me wonder if the quality of the teachers there is really as high as it is in the public schools.
Very well thought out post Mason3000. I can see where you're coming from about matching the student to the school. While my son is doing ok at Ramsey I have doubts about whether my daughter could hack it. I started on the near impossible task of trying to get her into Capital Hill this year even though she isn't done with Mann.
Your neighbors were likely die hard about their support for Ramsey mainly because they know what can happen when the neighbors actually support the local public school. Highland didn't have such a great reputation a few years ago, but word on the street says (yes, totally anecdotal) that it turned a corner when the parents from the good elementary schools started sending their kids there. I've heard this a lot at Horace Mann where nobody used to matriculate to Highland, but now most do. It was a conscious, organized effort by the parents, not a random happening. More French Immersion parents sent their kids to Ramsey this year than previous years, and hopefully they will report back positively to prospective parents so this trend can continue.
I certainly envy the school climate you have at TCA. One thing about TCA that I would like to point out however is that the achievement isn't particularly high on standardized tests. Sure, the averages look good, but the school has far more white kids than the other middle schools. Here's a shocker--no 6th grade black students at TCA passed the math portion of the MCA last year--not a single one--and the white kids were significantly lower performing than those at Murray, Ramsey or Highland. It makes me wonder if the quality of the teachers there is really as high as it is in the public schools.
Agreed, not all schools are equal for all students. I didn't think my daughter was going to join a street gang at Ramsey, it just didn't seem like the best option for her specifically.
Agreed on the coordinated effort of grade school family's to make the local school better. It absolutely happened with Highland Park and could/will happen with Ramsey. I'm skeptical that will happen until some of the new policy's and behavioral issues are addressed though. I'm curious to see what happens with the French Immersion School kids next year as (I'm sure you know this, btw) a group of 50 family's sent a letter to Ramsey saying they would not being following the French Immersion path to Ramsey next year if the behavioral issues weren't addressed. I wasn't impressed with the school's response which was to ask existing French Immersion family's to "accentuate the positives" and sort of guilt the potential family's into coming by stating they would lose funding that they're counting on if they don't come. I can tell you there are a slew of French Immersion family's flooding into TCA. They may just be exploring their options, but they're out there kicking tires and I'd bet it's not just at TCA?
I acknowledge that coming into 6th grade the Black kids have a rough time of it. It seemed like the beginning of the year was very much about breaking bad habits and getting people to conform with behavioral expectations. I have seen a noticeable difference in a very short period of time. To me, that's the first step in getting kids up to speed, is establishing a solid learning environment. It's a process. What's far more important than where we start, is progress and the final results. TCA High School was ranked the #1 public High School in the state for bridging the achievement gap. Newsweek ranked the top schools and TCA ranked #42 Nationally (ahead of Woodbury, Orono, Mounds View, Mahtomedi, Mpls Southwest and Eastview, who also made the list) and #17 Nationally for the best schools for poor/minority students. Rankings are arbitrary, metrics can be debated, etc. but regardless of that, TCA is obviously doing something right.
Now, as TCA experiences this type of success, how do they maintain it? You can't really expect them to do better, but can they avoid doing worse? With such small classes, maybe these numbers were just an anomaly? Maybe their formula won't translate now that they've gotten all this press and people are banging on the door to get in? It is very much an experiment that is still in progress, so we'll find out.
Last edited by Mason3000; 03-19-2015 at 11:14 AM..
Huh? Can't expect them to do better? Yes, I would expect that they could teach at least one 6th grade black student enough math to pass their MCAs. Especially with those wonderful small class sizes where everyone is so well behaved.
Huh? Can't expect them to do better? Yes, I would expect that they could teach at least one 6th grade black student enough math to pass their MCAs. Especially with those wonderful small class sizes where everyone is so well behaved.
I'm talking about being ranked the #1 High School in the state, #17 Nationally, #42 Nationally, etc.
As for not one single 6th grade Black kid passing the Math portion of the MCA's last year, I don't have a direct answer other than that it's a process, with many kids performing poorly at first. I don't know how many of the 75 or so 6th graders were even Black? I'd guess only around 15? All probably coming from the lowest performing schools in the city? I can speak to the Black kids in this years class and am quite certain knowing the family's involved, that it won't be repeated this year.
What difference does it make that the # of black students was small--how does that change the fact that none of them passed? You can easily look up the results at the dept. of education website and break the results down by race. I find this a convenient way to compare results while taking away the confounder of racial makeup of a school. The number of black students was 18. And why would the elementary schools they came from be any worse than the general St. Paul black population--I certainly don't buy that as a reason.
I was just trying to inject some real data into the discussion. It seems to be a given that TCA is a superior school, and I'm sure in some ways it is. It does have the accolades you mentioned--those are for the high school, not middle, I will also mention. I'm just questioning whether it really has the test results to back up its glowing reputation, and point out that some of the schools you might not think are doing better as far as test results go actually are.
What difference does it make that the # of black students was small--how does that change the fact that none of them passed? You can easily look up the results at the dept. of education website and break the results down by race. I find this a convenient way to compare results while taking away the confounder of racial makeup of a school. The number of black students was 18. And why would the elementary schools they came from be any worse than the general St. Paul black population--I certainly don't buy that as a reason.
I was just trying to inject some real data into the discussion. It seems to be a given that TCA is a superior school, and I'm sure in some ways it is. It does have the accolades you mentioned--those are for the high school, not middle, I will also mention. I'm just questioning whether it really has the test results to back up its glowing reputation, and point out that some of the schools you might not think are doing better as far as test results go actually are.
No, you're not just trying to inject some real data, that became evident with the snarky tone of your last post, which I ignored. What you're trying to do is debunk the idea that TCA is a good school because of sour grapes. You do make some valid points and I can make some in return, but I'm not interested in having an extended debate and you don't want to be convinced, since your goal is to paint TCA in a bad light in order to make Ramsey look better. There are LOT'S of ugly story's I could tell about Ramsey and the direction of the school, but I'm not here to smear Ramsey and sincerely hope you guys can turn it around. Good luck to your son at Ramsey.
You know what, you're right. I was putting down TCA and I was being snarky.
I guess I'm just fed up with having to defend the public schools in St. Paul. I don't know why I do it because no one seems to agree with me and I'm tired of being made to feel like a second class citizen for sending my kids there. And the funny thing is that the ones making me feel second class are the citizens of St. Paul. I tried to take up for Ramsey, but was reminded at every turn that it is actually a very dangerous, bad place and I'm just naive. And here I thought I was doing a positive thing for our city trying to support a struggling school.
Why would anyone who stumbles upon this thread be interested in living in St. Paul? The taxes are among the highest in the entire metro and apparently the public schools are not to be trusted. This is the image we portray.
So to speak to the original post in this thread, yes, you can send your kids to the public schools, but be prepared to feel like you are doing wrong by your kids sending them there. And this will be your own neighbors who are making you feel that way.
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