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In all fairness, football isn't comparable. It's very common for Varsity football players to start in their teens. Football has a lot to do with size, strength and speed. Of course there are a lot of skills. In hockey, you are riding on a skinny blade and you are required to look up (not down) while your are stick handling and trying to figuring out where you precisely need to shoot the puck. We are talking about a different skill set that needs countless hours of practice. You need to work on your stride, edge work, stick handling, shooting, strength, the game, see the entire ice, speed, etc. Quarterbacks are more closely related to the skills that you need in Hockey. I think a QB is analogous to the skills of hockey.
Starting early in any sport does NOT give you an advantage compared to a similarly athletic child. It will make you LOOK like a better player in the pee wee levels but over time that advantage evens out. Sure, if you start a 3 or 4 year old skating, by age 9 they will have better skills than a 9 year old that started that year, by age 11, with similar practice time, you will not be able to tell the difference. Older kids are able to pick up skills faster, their bodies are more mature and they are generally more coordinated.
Similar analogy--if you and your 4 year old started piano lessons at the same time, practiced the same amount of time, you would be 3 books ahead of your child in 6 months because your brain capacity is such that you will learn that skill faster. Same with ice skating. If you started to ice skate the same time as your 4 year old, buy the end of your lesson you will be doing just fine where your 4 year old will still be falling down quite often AND at the start of the next lesson you will pretty much pick up where you left off, your 4 year old will have regressed some because their muscle memory isn't there yet.
Starting early in any sport does NOT give you an advantage compared to a similarly athletic child. It will make you LOOK like a better player in the pee wee levels but over time that advantage evens out. Sure, if you start a 3 or 4 year old skating, by age 9 they will have better skills than a 9 year old that started that year, by age 11, with similar practice time, you will not be able to tell the difference. Older kids are able to pick up skills faster, their bodies are more mature and they are generally more coordinated.
Similar analogy--if you and your 4 year old started piano lessons at the same time, practiced the same amount of time, you would be 3 books ahead of your child in 6 months because your brain capacity is such that you will learn that skill faster. Same with ice skating. If you started to ice skate the same time as your 4 year old, buy the end of your lesson you will be doing just fine where your 4 year old will still be falling down quite often AND at the start of the next lesson you will pretty much pick up where you left off, your 4 year old will have regressed some because their muscle memory isn't there yet.
I agree with you on individual sports like golf, track, cross country, etc.
In MN and with Boys hockey, it's extremely competitive. It's different in hockey because at a very early age, most associations don't have even / fair play time at the squirt level. So at a B1 Squirt, there will be penalty killing lines and power playing lines. There are enough penalties in hockey where if Johnny is average, he skips many shifts. In the 3rd period, he might sit again. Of course on the A level, the shifts are shortened on the 3rd line when the game is close (one quick whistle blow and they are off the ice).
What I just described has an even more powerful affect that play time: It's called shattered self esteem and confidence. Remember, many coaches and parents personal self esteem are tied to how well they do. Parents whose Kid's are better are telling the coach how important it is to win. In Minnetonka for instance, a lot of it has to do with WINNING Edina NOT necessarily developing all of the Kid's.
All along I said it depends on the level of competition (which association you belong to). Wayzata have over 250 Kid's trying out for Peewees. If memory serves me correctly, they field 1 A team, 2 B1's, and 1 B2 team. That's 70 Kid's out of 250 that get to play. Add in the politics, and I propose that 9 year old has positively ZERO chance of making a B2 team. In that association, the odds are stacked against you.
The reality is that the game speed from a B2 to an A team is huge. On average, you develop more on better teams. That's should not be up for debate. Now in Coon Rapids, they have 70 Kid's try out for two or three teams. Statistically, they have a much better shot of playing if they start at age 9.
Back to the larger associations. Do you realize that the hockey camps are full of year round hockey players that are sending a couple thousand on clinics? Even then you might be a B2 player fighting for a chance to play.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 01-31-2012 at 10:02 AM..
My Son is the Captain of CC and Track so he is a decent athlete. In hockey, he is 6'3 and 180 pounds and he plays on the 3rd or 4th line as a senior. This is the 1st year he will letter.
He started at age 7. Every year he has went to the association summer training 3 times a week (9 week sessions). He has went to "Breakfast Club" @ MN Made Hockey for a couple of years (I drove him from Andover to Edina at 6AM in the morning). It is a clinic that focuses on stick handling @$900 a year. You also spend 1/2 hour a day doing dryland to develop muscle memory for that Breakfast Club. He went to Scott Bjugstad shooting school two years $700 a time (Ex Pro's and 2 D1's instructors). He participated in at least one Spring league or Fall league each year. Of course there were all kinds of other summer camps. I'm guess a total of 10 others camps at $300-$450 each. He needed to gain strength so he has been working out for three years for hockey. I almost forgot. He went to most association fall conditioning sessions (5 days a week for 4 weeks) Then there is the Acceleration MN dryland skating machines that we skated on couple hundred times to work on his stride and the thousands of pucks shot at an empty net in the garage.
His goal was to play hockey in high school so he can one day coach his Son and have fun. He finally accomplished his goal as a Senior. The Kid's on the 1st and 2nd line are the exact same Kid's on that A Peewee team with one exception. The 3rd line high school team was filled in by the earlier B1 Kid's. That's because some of the early risers who were on the A team dropped out (too small, burn out, etc). Additionally, one of the 1st line players started at age 9. So in a smaller size association, it can be done. But that Kid who is on our 1st line probably would have been cut LONG ago in Eagan, Eden Prairie, etc. I predict he would not make the Minnetonka or Eagan team right now.
I just described an average caliber association and it's dog-eat-dog competitive. Just remember: Edina cut all but one Senior (a Nanne was not cut if memory serves me). I'm speaking from experience here. Boy's hockey in MN is extremely competitive. Even God given athletes need a tremendous amount of training. If that 9 year old tries to participate in Wayzata unfortunately he will be left behind. That's the reality. Sorry but your piano example is irrelevant. With Girls hockey, 12 year old can make a Varsity team but that is changing fast.
So if you are following my argument, there will be missed opportunities that can not be made up that will make it statistically impossible for a player to make it at age 9. This reason not being able to catch-up has less to do with your points and more to do with association politics and sheer competition.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 01-31-2012 at 10:38 AM..
Being a good runner doesn't automatically mean you will be a top hockey player though. I realize hockey is competitive in MN, however, starting at 4 or 7 or 9 will have very little bearing on a similarly gifted athlete no matter WHAT sport or how competitive that sport is. The college coach recruiting your child could care less what pee wee team he played for if your kid has what he wants when he sees him in high school. I've coached high school sports for over 25 years. I've had these conversations with coaches from all college levels across several sports. I've witnessed first hand, many, many, many times a student that for whatever reason couldn't play their favorite sport in 7th, 8th grade transfer to another sport and by the time they graduated were DI recruited. We just had a HOTLY DI student recruited from our high school for football who started playing football in 9th grade.
More often what you see is the kid that started at age 4, practiced, trained and did all the stuff your son did through the years only to drop out in 10th grade because they were just burned out, or worse, suffered a career ending injury at a young age because their bodies just are not made to play like that from that early age.
I also know plenty of golfers that play a few rounds over the summer, play on their high school teams and are some of the top rated players in the state. There are others that train year round with swing coaches, practice daily in the summer and still can't make it to the state tournament. Practice will only take you so far. You have to have the natural inclination to play whatever sport. Much like you see in track. Tell me how many distance guys on the team are going to state in the 100 meter dash? Doesn't mean they aren't top rated distance runners, they just aren't cut out for sprints.
Being a good runner doesn't automatically mean you will be a top hockey player though. I realize hockey is competitive in MN, however, starting at 4 or 7 or 9 will have very little bearing on a similarly gifted athlete no matter WHAT sport or how competitive that sport is. The college coach recruiting your child could care less what pee wee team he played for if your kid has what he wants when he sees him in high school. I've coached high school sports for over 25 years. I've had these conversations with coaches from all college levels across several sports. I've witnessed first hand, many, many, many times a student that for whatever reason couldn't play their favorite sport in 7th, 8th grade transfer to another sport and by the time they graduated were DI recruited. We just had a HOTLY DI student recruited from our high school for football who started playing football in 9th grade.
More often what you see is the kid that started at age 4, practiced, trained and did all the stuff your son did through the years only to drop out in 10th grade because they were just burned out, or worse, suffered a career ending injury at a young age because their bodies just are not made to play like that from that early age.
I also know plenty of golfers that play a few rounds over the summer, play on their high school teams and are some of the top rated players in the state. There are others that train year round with swing coaches, practice daily in the summer and still can't make it to the state tournament. Practice will only take you so far. You have to have the natural inclination to play whatever sport. Much like you see in track. Tell me how many distance guys on the team are going to state in the 100 meter dash? Doesn't mean they aren't top rated distance runners, they just aren't cut out for sprints.
I think we all want to believe our sons and daughters are gifted, but reality is not so kind. Starting hockey at 9 is a serious disadvantage that most will not be able to overcome. Never hurts to try and there is always pond hockey and such to participate in if the kid loves the sport but does not make a team.
The structure part of typical youth hockey in itself is a major obstacle. Never heard of a CC team that was turning kids away because they had too many kids wanting to participate. Limited opportunity is going to be a hurdle in hockey that most other sports do not present.
Being a good runner doesn't automatically mean you will be a top hockey player though. .
Being a good runner doesn't have anything to do with hockey. ZERO. I mentioned it to show he is athletic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
4 or 7 or 9 will have very little bearing on a similarly gifted athlete no matter WHAT sport or how competitive that sport is. The college coach recruiting your child could care less what pee wee team he played for if your kid has what he wants when he sees him in high school. .
I mostly agree. But you missed my point. In some associations, you HAVE to have those skills well before age 9 (Wayzata example 70 Kid's play out of the 250 that tryout)! If you tryout in Coon Rapids, 50-60 tryout for 48 slots. You have a shot in that association but don't have a snowballs-chance-in-Hell in Wayzata . So your point has nothing to do with my main point. Large associations in MN cut a lot of Kid's and you cannot keep up or get into extremely competitive hockey starting so late.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
've witnessed first hand, many, many, many times a student that for whatever reason couldn't play their favorite sport in 7th, 8th grade transfer to another sport and by the time they graduated were DI recruited..
I'm not talking about just any sport. I'm talking about Boy's hockey in MN! I'm saying it's nearly impossible for Johnny at age 9 to put on some skates in Wayzata and compete against the 180 Kid's that will get cut. It's not going to happen. The system is stacked against him. It has NOTHING to do with athleticism or the other things you are mentioning which are all true for other sports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
We just had a HOTLY DI student recruited from our high school for football who started playing football in 9th grade..
I already explained why football is different. You can start football at age 15 and go D1. I'm sure there 11th graders that go D1 or pro. That's because football is STILL recruiting players in the 9th and 10th grade no matter how big the school is. No go try that with hockey. It is NOT going to happen. So why bring up Golf, football, etc?
The structure part of typical youth hockey in itself is a major obstacle. Never heard of a CC team that was turning kids away because they had too many kids wanting to participate. Limited opportunity is going to be a hurdle in hockey that most other sports do not present.
You get my main point. Just add in two words to your above statement: MN and Boys. It's not going to be a problem if you want to play hockey in AZ (even on a traveling team) nor with girls hockey (albeit things are changing fast).
While Golfgal is trying to apply her points to Boy's hockey in MN, it's just not the same comparison. I've lived it. I've spent a fortune so that my Son could get good enough and compete on a 3rd or 4th line in MN. My Son's high school is just average. Imagine on how competitive it gets in Edina (like I said, they cut the Senior Boys that would mop up most high school starters).
You said it best. There are obstacles that I discussed in detail earlier.
I will still disagree, hockey is NO different than any other sport when it comes to staring at age 9 or 15. If a child has the natural talent to play in at the DI level or the pros, starting at age 4 vs 15 will have NO effect on that. For a less talented player, it might mean the difference between getting to play on the junior high team or not. If you don't have the talent you aren't going to play no matter when you start, period. This is true for hockey, football, track, whatever. The skills will come if a very talented player starts in 8th grade or at age 4, they just come faster to the talented 14 year old. The difference with MN hockey is that the PARENTS think otherwise that is all.
The OP after all is asking "Is it too late for a 9 y. old boy to learn hockey" not "Is it too late for my 9 y. old to become a high-school varsity player or can he skip directly to the pros"
This state does produce the most non-playing/never-played hockey experts if nothing else.
The OP after all is asking "Is it too late for a 9 y. old boy to learn hockey" not "Is it too late for my 9 y. old to become a high-school varsity player or can he skip directly to the pros"
.
Re-read the Op's words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede in CA
How old are the boys in general when they begin to train an skate if they are serious about the sports.
To answer the OP's point let's drop high school hockey / pro's etc. In my opinion, chances are you will get cut from any traveling team if you go to Eagan, Edina, Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, Duluth, Lakeville etc. If you are serious about the sport and you live in MN, you will be in traveling association hockey. At age 9 you will be cut in these associations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghengis
This state does produce the most non-playing/never-played hockey experts if nothing else.
I played hockey for 10 years. But you don't have to be a hockey expert to know that if 180 kids are cut from a single association at age 9, the odds are stacked against you.
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In hockey, you are riding on a skinny blade and you are required to look up (not down) while your are stick handling and trying to figuring out where you precisely need to shoot the puck. We are talking about a different skill set that needs countless hours of practice. You need to work on your stride, edge work, stick handling, shooting, strength, the game, see the entire ice, speed, etc. Quarterbacks are more closely related to the skills that you need in Hockey. I think a QB is analogous to the skills of hockey.
But you don't have to be a hockey expert to know that if 180 kids are cut from a single association at age 9, the odds are stacked against you.
