[sci311]

Originally Posted by cksh

But I hate it when people try to make me feel guilty because my neighbor may lose his job. It's a me, me world Yes I am selfish when it comes to supporting my family. If GM has to go out of business to do it? So be it But! that does not mean I would never buy one if they produce something I don't find ugly.

You are the exception, not the rule when it comes to working for auto companies as many more people in this country work for the domestics. You do have to take care of your family of course, no doubt about that.

But I highly disagree the "me, me world" attitude you are putting up because you are missing the big picture. It may come back to haunt you (depending where you live naturally). If your neighbors lose their jobs and can't pay for their houses, then there are foreclosers. If there are foreclosers, then what happens to your property values? What happens to services in your community, schools, police, fire? You are incorrect if you think your neighbors losing their jobs will not have the potential to effect you. I NEVER came on this post to make anybody feel guilty, but just to try to relate some of the facts that maybe many people don't know about. If these facts make you feel guilty, thats not my fault.

[cksh]

I totally agree. And I do see the big picture. Actually I agree that it will have an effect but not one that I am worried about.

Not to sound mean (Even though I know I will) but!...Housing prices going down? Perfect. I don't own and am looking forward to buying someone's house cheap in two years (I have been following prices for over a year already). No Police? Thats why I own a gun . Fire? Thats what rental insurance is for. Schools? Schools in my area are not that great so I don't want my kids going there anyways.

My area would be greatly affected by automotive cutting back jobs. I live within a mile of both a GM and Ford plant. Am I worried? No. I can always move out of state and work outside Automotive. I can always go work for one of the import corporations too. Lots in Michigan. They don't call the Farmington hills area little Tokyo for nothing

In the end Michigan will get it and focus more on technology and forget this manufacturing idea. I sincerely don't like the idea of people losing their jobs (despite what I say!) but I think we are postponing the inevitable. We will always have manufacturing but not like today. It will be just like the steel industry etc.

Please don't get upset by my attitude. I think its because I am not a native Michigander and don't have family/friends who work for the big 3 like most people around here. Please feel free to bash me

[scirocco22]

You're absolutely right, sci, about nobody is responsible for a person's "feeling guilty" but that person himself. That's why when I made the comment after one of weasel's posts, I stated that I'd get over it quick. cksh, you seem to have a good attitude about it too.

Although it wasn't my intent to disucss these topics when I started this thread, I'm really torn about this issue. Certainly I'd "like" to buy an American-badged vehicle. I think we all would. However, as I said in a previous post, my experience with them has left a bad-taste in my mouth. Now that GM and Ford vehicles are showing better reliability ratings, perhaps I may consider them the next time around.

And Tina, as far as Torry's comments go, I somewhat have the same sentiments and, actually, I don't consider them foolish. As I said, I've had similar experiences. For me, all the American-badged cars constantly being in the shop, falling apart, rattling, etc., etc., was truly frustrating. There were always a long punch list of items to be adjusted and repaired when I bought a new American car. Then on a whim, I bought a Toyota 4Runner. It was perfect upon delivery and stayed that way for the almost ten years that I owned it. That was the eye-opener for me. It never needed anything more than routine maintenance. I can't remember anything ever going wrong with it. It was tight and rattle-free after ten years.

I then started buying Japanese cars for awhile with some VW/Audi's mixed in and then went back to a Ford. Same thing ...long puch list, little things falling apart, rattles and squeeks, in the shop frequently to get things fixed, etc.

Since then I haven't bought an American-badged car. And without exception, all the Japanese-badged cars I've owned have been almost flawless with the VWs/Audis close but not quite up the the level of those of the Japanese manufacturers.

Now granted, you're absolutely right, Tina, one can experience a lemon in a Japanese car too. It's just that I haven't. Conversely, I'm sure there are many American cars that are trouble-free. It's just that I haven't had one.

I've had friends and family report similar experiences as mine. That's why the Japanese cars have been so successful here. Otherwise, they wouldn't be half as popular because as I've said, I'm sure we all would PREFER to own American cars.

I'm on the fence on this issue, so both sides can bash me!

--'rocco

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

I then started buying Japanese cars for awhile with some VW/Audi's mixed in and then went back to a Ford. Same thing ...long puch list, little things falling apart, rattles and squeeks, in the shop frequently to get things fixed, etc. --'rocco

If you don't mind me asking which Ford (model year and vehicle) was this?

Your story is very common unfortunately because there were so many bad apples in the past. (And still some being built as we speak.) My aunt had a similar situation as you. She had several cars with numerous problems, switched to a Honda Accord in the mid 90's and hasn't bought anything else since.

That left a big impression on her because the most recent Accord she purchased (her 3rd overall) is a lemon. She's had the transmission replaced, PCM, battery died, etc, and the car has only 15K miles on it! But because she had 2 great Accords before this one she thinks it's an exception and still swears by her Hondas. Even I recognize they are good cars and these things should not be happening but I told her if this keeps up she better sell it before the warranty expires.

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by iamweasel

If you don't mind me asking which Ford (model year and vehicle) was this? .....

Don't laugh ...a '93 Aerostar. What a POS.


A close friend of mine bought a Probe around the same time and even though it was basically a Mazda, had horrendous problems with it. Coincidentally, he bought it because it was assembled by UAW.


--'rocco

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

Don't laugh ...a '93 Aerostar. What a POS.


A close friend of mine bought a Probe around the same time and even though it was basically a Mazda, had horrendous problems with it. Coincidentally, he bought it because it was assembled by UAW.


--'rocco

Nice....my Dad had two Aerostars back in the day. Yeah, not exactly top-notch engineering there.

People also need to understand that where a car is physically built (UAW vs Southern US vs Japan) has very little impact on quality. Seriously. So many of the operations in a plant are now dummy-proof where it makes it very hard to screw something up. You'll get minor things like the carpet isn't tucked in correctly or a switch not completely snapped in but it's not like your body panels will start falling off or something if a UAW member does it.

Generally, any plant-related quality defects are noticed within 3 months of service. Anything after that is generally chalked up to engineering or design.

In addition, I hope people realize vehicles built in Japan can have some advantages because they basically run glorified sweatshops. In the US, if you want to change the way something is built to improve vehicle quality, it has to pass ergonomic rules mandated by the US Government. In Japan, they can basically do what they want no matter if they bend people like a human pretzel. I worked in Product Development for an automaker, and we benchmarked every single part on the vehicle with every single competitor. Some of the changes we wanted to make we could not do in plants in the US because of things like that.

I know it seems like I'm some apologist for the domestics here, and I admit to being one to some extent, but I get upset with people who spew hateful comments towards these companies that really "try" more than people think.

In the end, drive what you like but do it for the right reasons. (Because you like the car for whatever reason - not because you THINK you're being patriotic, etc.) Please don't be a blowhard if you don't know what the heck you're talking about.

[MittenDweller82]

98 Accord and proud of it 200K runs like a watch. See if you can find a ford the same year that does that. No, i don't hate U.S. cars, Toyota builds their parts in Japan ships them to U.S. and then are assembled their. Frankly, many say the quality of our autos is gaining but who can say?

[fivestar]

No one west of the mississippi cares where their car is made.

No, it's not dangerous; with our gas prices, unemployment rates, poverty rates, and high cost of living, you don't have a choice....

But to drive JAPANESE!!!

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by fivestar

No one west of the mississippi cares where their car is made.

No, it's not dangerous; with our gas prices, unemployment rates, poverty rates, and high cost of living, you don't have a choice....

But to drive JAPANESE!!!

I don't get it.


--'rocco

[mike jones]

As a owner of several Japanese cars which have been keyed up or dinged on purpose in the past I am not surprised that American auto workers are without a job.

The Buy American "or else" mentality does not sell any more cars.

I refuse to be intimidated into buying a product I do not want.