[AussieMale]

You get what you pay for.

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by sci311

No, Japanese cars are not to blame for Michigan's economic woes. Unfair trade policies are (in significant part). This also was written about pages ago.

I understand what you're saying, sci, because I've often felt the same way about the unfair trade policies aspect. However, think for a moment if Japanese cars were truly pieces of s*** in those days, then no matter how unfair the advantage may have been, they wouldn't have sold many cars and wouldn't have gained the loyalty that they now have. Am I thinking right on that?


--'rocco

[sci311]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

I understand what you're saying, sci, because I've often felt the same way about the unfair trade policies aspect. However, think for a moment if Japanese cars were truly pieces of s*** in those days, then no matter how unfair the advantage may have been, they wouldn't have sold many cars and wouldn't have gained the loyalty that they now have. Am I thinking right on that?


--'rocco

Well I'm not actually sure in what days you're referring to because I don't remember referrencing "those days" myself. If you mean the 70's, then all cars were pieces of s*** no matter what you bought. The Japanese started to get their foothold in the US at that time mainly because of attractive fuel economies and low sticker prices, and not for quality reasons. The quality reputation didn't really kick in until the eighties. Think of what the Koreans have done in the past 10 years. Their cars were crap a decade ago, but were very inexpensive and they started to carve out a segment of the market. Since then their quality has really improved tremendously.

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by sci311

Well I'm not actually sure in what days you're referring to because I don't remember referrencing "those days" myself. If you mean the 70's, then all cars were pieces of s*** no matter what you bought. The Japanese started to get their foothold in the US at that time mainly because of attractive fuel economies and low sticker prices, and not for quality reasons. The quality reputation didn't really kick in until the eighties. Think of what the Koreans have done in the past 10 years. Their cars were crap a decade ago, but were very inexpensive and they started to carve out a segment of the market. Since then their quality has really improved tremendously.

Ah, can't argue too much with what you're saying.

However, when referring to "those days," I remember buying a new Corolla in 1974 and even then they had a reputation of being reliable. The reason I remember is that I was just about ready to buy a Ford Pinto and a friend gave me all this literature on how great Toyotas were. It convinced me. I had absolutely no problems with that car ...not one, and I drove it well over 100k ...just routine maintenance.

I recall chuckling when another friend who DID buy a Pinto, had all sorts of problems with it. It was just one thing after another. Sure, it could've just been a lemon but when I thought about it, it was just the sort of problems that you'd expect from a car back then ...as you said, the perception was that "every" car was a piece of s***.

--'rocco

[mike jones]

Regardless of the reasons, you should want to buy American to help the economy... whatever you "think" the cause is.

I also wonder where people think GM and Ford and fine with continuously producing bad quality vehicles. Have you did any comparison shopping lately? Didn't think so.

You should buy American because it helps our country. What do you have against America? I agree that the Big 3 should comptete for market share but come on! Even if you don't work in the auto industry, surely many multiples of people WILL be effected by the demise of the Big 3.[/quote]


People buy products because they like them, not out of obligation.
People camped in line for 3 days in freezing weather just to buy an X-BOX or to be first in line at Ikea.

Build something people want and they will beat a path to your door.
Look, studies have shown that the Buy American mentality does not increase automobile sales significantly.

Like I said in an earlier post, I refuse to be intimidated or harranged to buy a certain product based on where it was built.
We have choices here and Americans love choice.

Either change with the times or become extinct like the dinosaurs.

[scirocco22]

I really don't understand what you're saying, Mike.

It's like you're talking out of the both sides of your mouth.

First you say that "Regardless of the reasons, you should want to buy American to help the economy... whatever you "think" the cause is."

And then you turn around and say: "Like I said in an earlier post, I refuse to be intimidated or harranged to buy a certain product based on where it was built.

We have choices here and Americans love choice."


There's something in your message that I'm not getting. But like I said in an earlier post, I'm not the most intelligent person around either.

--'rocco

[sci311]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

Ah, can't argue too much with what you're saying.

However, when referring to "those days," I remember buying a new Corolla in 1974 and even then they had a reputation of being reliable. The reason I remember is that I was just about ready to buy a Ford Pinto and a friend gave me all this literature on how great Toyotas were. It convinced me. I had absolutely no problems with that car ...not one, and I drove it well over 100k ...just routine maintenance.

I recall chuckling when another friend who DID buy a Pinto, had all sorts of problems with it. It was just one thing after another. Sure, it could've just been a lemon but when I thought about it, it was just the sort of problems that you'd expect from a car back then ...as you said, the perception was that "every" car was a piece of s***.

--'rocco

Looking back at what I wrote I did not mean to over-generalize the quality (or lack thereof) of 70's cars. Of course there are always going to be good individual cars and bad individual cars in every era. I just meant that on average, and particularly by todays standards, they were inferior cars (even though I worded it in a cruder fashion). As a side note of personal experience, they were also a lot easier to work on back then.

As far as Toyota already having a reputation for quality in the 70's, that would be a new one on me, and I most certainly wouldn't think there was any firmly established reputation at the time. I am going off memory here however as I would have to do some digging for data to back that up. Whatever the case regarding quality, everything that I ever known is that it was primarily mileage and price that propelled Japanese car sales in the US market in the 1970's.

[sci311]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

I really don't understand what you're saying, Mike.

It's like you're talking out of the both sides of your mouth.

First you say that "Regardless of the reasons, you should want to buy American to help the economy... whatever you "think" the cause is."

And then you turn around and say: "Like I said in an earlier post, I refuse to be intimidated or harranged to buy a certain product based on where it was built.

We have choices here and Americans love choice."


There's something in your message that I'm not getting. But like I said in an earlier post, I'm not the most intelligent person around either.

--'rocco

He was trying to quote somebody else and did something wrong.

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by sci311

He was quoting somebody else and did something wrong.

Ah, ok, my apologies to mike. I see it now.


As for the history of Toyota's reliability, yes, it was even present in the mid-70s. I remember it clearly. In fact, I just threw away (well, a few years ago when I moved) those articles and documentations that my friend gave me about Toyotas. They presented some pretty convincing arguments at the time.

Here's an article on Toyota's history and it sort of alludes to the established reliability of their cars even by that time.

http://www.toyota50th.com/UShistory.asp (broken link)

Again, I'm not necessarily a staunch Toyota fan. I don't own one now and I haven't for some years. But with that said, the two that I did own (that Corolla and an '86 4Runner) were the most reliable vehicles I've ever owned.

As I've said before, of course we'd all like to buy American cars. As soon as they give me a product that meets all my needs, I will be the first in line at the local Ford or GM dealership. And one of my most important needs is the desire for a reliable product that won't nickel and dime me to death. And a vehicle that's solidly built where things aren't falling apart and breaking off.

--'rocco

[mike jones]

Originally Posted by Andre5140

First off, they aren't morons...the Union leadership is a bunch of morons for trying to be isolationists.

I drive a Toyota and honestly don't really care for it. Regardless of the reasons, you should want to buy American to help the economy... whatever you "think" the cause is.

I also wonder where people think GM and Ford and fine with continuously producing bad quality vehicles. Have you did any comparison shopping lately? Didn't think so.

I currently have a Toyota Tacoma and owned a 2004 Mazda 3 that felt like it was built with recycled milk jugs. What a cheaply built piece of crap. You should buy American because it helps our country. What do you have against America? I agree that the Big 3 should comptete for market share but come on! Even if you don't work in the auto industry, surely many multiples of people WILL be effected by the demise of the Big 3.

I meant to quote this fella but somewhere I messed up technology.
This should make sense now

People buy products because they like them, not out of obligation.
People camped in line for 3 days in freezing weather just to buy an X-BOX or to be first in line at Ikea.

Build something people want and they will beat a path to your door.
Look, studies have shown that the Buy American mentality does not increase automobile sales significantly.

Like I said in an earlier post, I refuse to be intimidated or harranged to buy a certain product based on where it was built.
We have choices here and Americans love choice.

Either change with the times or become extinct like the dinosaurs.
Also I try to buy American when I can.
I admit I do get frustrated when I go to a retail store and all the items are stamped "Made in China"
Things like shoes, jackets, shirts, and household appliances.