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To anyone bashing "foreigners" for taking "our jobs"...you want to know what would happen if we put an end to Globalization (if it were even possible)???
...We would go back in time to the 60s. Maybe even the 50s. All the neat little gadgets and gizmos and niceties of life that you have become accustomed to will no longer be easy to get, since they'd all have to be made here in America. We'd have less things to pick from as consumers and because of less competition, prices on everything would go up! Most of America's workers would be turned back to grunt-level/physical-labor workers in order to sustain our countries 300+ million citizens and that means there'd be very few tech/white-collar jobs compared to what we'd even have now. In short, our economy would be a disaster and our standards of living would go back 30-40 years. No fancy SUVs, no amazingly cheap cellphones or computers - it'd be like going back to the stone age for many people.
Don't you understand that globalization did not kill the American car industry? Other countries did not initially make cars at a loss to "steal" our car market...they made profits off their cars and it was AMERICA who was charging too much for vehicles! It's amazing how changing perspective slightly can show the truth in a situation.
The fact of the matter is this: We cannot shut the doors of a global economy now. It's happened and will never go back to the way it was. Even communist China would have a hard time keeping out foreign influences if it ever decided to try and shut itself off from the world --- because they chose to participate in trading with other countries, that's the price they have to pay.
In America, the only way people will be able to keep their jobs or find work is by making yourself more marketable than a foreign worker. If that means you being willing to take a job that pays 40k/year with partial benefits versus 50+k with full benefits, so be it. Employees are no longer in the position to pick and choose their future - they need to relaize that an adjustment of lifestyle and expected salary may be necessary if one wants to stay in a particular part of the country or in a certain industry.
You mean the 60's when a high school graduate could buy a home with a 15 year mortgage and support a family on just one income? The 60's when people got wedding gifts that would pretty much last them into their retirement years?
I think what's worse than unions in general is the particular mix of unions present in Michigan. The UAW in particular are some of the nastiest group of people you could have working for you. Their belligerence, in turn rubs off on other Michigan unions, like the disastrous Northwest Mechanics union that went on strike a couple of years ago hoping to destroy DTW airport and bring all of Detroit to its knees but ended up losing their jobs, because Northwest had secretly trained replacement workers. I didn't shed any tears for them.
For an employer, it's not so much about money as it is about a reliable workforce. In Michigan, you can't find that. If you want an apples to apples comparison, compare the UAW's belligerent, strike filled negotiations (which were followed by even more strikes even after a deal was reached) to the recent CAW negotiations, which barely registered a blip in the media. The CAW workers got a 4 figure signing bonus, no wage cuts, and no two tier wages for the future. The UAW striked, striked, striked, and then striked some more, and they ended up losing wages and jobs. That's the difference.
In America, the only way people will be able to keep their jobs or find work is by making yourself more marketable than a foreign worker. If that means you being willing to take a job that pays 40k/year with partial benefits versus 50+k with full benefits, so be it. Employees are no longer in the position to pick and choose their future - they need to relaize that an adjustment of lifestyle and expected salary may be necessary if one wants to stay in a particular part of the country or in a certain industry.
This is the biggest pile of stink that I have seen yet-- You mean to tell me that there is a difference of $10,000 and partial benefits ,JUST TO KEEP YOUR JOB-- Are you kidding me??? I would love to take a mere $10,000.00 pay cut a year if I had STEADY WORK!! But that is not the case anymore!!
Wake up and stop being so damn short sighted, look beyond one segment and look at the whole picture it is really not that confusing!!!
Union or non-union ---corporations need to make HUGE, GIGUNDUS, MONSTOROUS PROFITS and I do not care what you do for that company-- YOU ARE OVERHEAD (as long as they are cutting you a check)and if they can get you to work for immigrant wages they will be happy with that!! They want to pay you as little as possible.
Good freaking luck on finding a job right now that will pay any type of benefits, let alone a decent salary-- I do not care what part of the country your in- the only exception to that would be health care, accounting, or marketing/advertising. Oh wait damn it --none of those are blue collar!! Hey here ya go -- Wyoming, where you can make $16.00 hr. driving a freaking earth mover(that is really enough to take care of a family)-- but wait that is only because gas is $3.98 a gal, so that will bust here shortly.
I think I will bow out of this conversation, it gets me so darn wound up- Michigan is a great state with GREAT PEOPLE and no-one deserves to be treated as we have been!! Corporate greed runs this country not the people!!!
Wake up and stop being so damn short sighted, look beyond one segment and look at the whole picture it is really not that confusing!!!
I sincerely wish you'd heed your own advice. You're complaining about corporate greed, but that's just the way the world works. Those greedy corporate types are the people who give you a job. You, and every other line worker, are a dime a dozen. That's why you don't make an equal share with the CEO. You-- and the whole state of MI-- are angry because one group of people are talented and will not give you a share of the value of their talent.
Your mentality is what killed MI.
Last edited by One Thousand; 05-19-2008 at 11:12 AM..
I sincerely wish you'd heed your own advice. You're complaining about corporate greed, but that's just the way the world works. Those greedy corporate types are the people who give you a job. You, and every other line worker, are a dime a dozen. That's why you don't make an equal share with the CEO. You-- and the whole state of MI-- are angry because one group of people are talented and will not give you a share of the value of their talent.
Your mentality is what killed MI.
I sincerely wish you'd stop distorting what people say, putting words in their mouths, and using straw man arguments.
joey71 has made it clear that he is not a line worker; he works in a skilled trade. He is not asking to be paid the same as a CEO; he is asking for enough to support a family. Neither corporate management nor labor would have their jobs without the other, so it is misleading to say that one "gives" the other their jobs. And on what basis do you presume to speak for the whole state of Michigan? I doubt very much that those who are angry are angry for the reason you impute to them.
The fact that corporate greed is "just the way the world works", as you put it, is precisely why we need strong unions. If corporations can get away with paying workers less than they need to support a family, they will do so. We need strong unions not just in Michigan but everywhere to counterbalance corporate power. If capital can go global, then labor must do the same. As I've said on more than one thread, the problem is not that labor is too strong here, the problem is that it's too weak elsewhere.
(BTW, some of the more moderate critics of unions have suggested on this thread that government regulation can take the place of unions, and that unions are therefore no longer needed. The actions of the Bush administration show why this is not enough. This administration has politicized the regulatory agencies that oversee industry, in effect letting corporations oversee themselves. Google "fox guarding the henhouse" and see how many examples of this come up.)
Expressions of contempt for working people are no substitute for arguments and evidence. I understand why joey71 is exasperated.
To anyone bashing "foreigners" for taking "our jobs"...you want to know what would happen if we put an end to Globalization (if it were even possible)???
...We would go back in time to the 60s. Maybe even the 50s. All the neat little gadgets and gizmos and niceties of life that you have become accustomed to will no longer be easy to get, since they'd all have to be made here in America. We'd have less things to pick from as consumers and because of less competition, prices on everything would go up! Most of America's workers would be turned back to grunt-level/physical-labor workers in order to sustain our countries 300+ million citizens and that means there'd be very few tech/white-collar jobs compared to what we'd even have now. In short, our economy would be a disaster and our standards of living would go back 30-40 years. No fancy SUVs, no amazingly cheap cellphones or computers - it'd be like going back to the stone age for many people.
Don't you understand that globalization did not kill the American car industry? Other countries did not initially make cars at a loss to "steal" our car market...they made profits off their cars and it was AMERICA who was charging too much for vehicles! It's amazing how changing perspective slightly can show the truth in a situation.
The fact of the matter is this: We cannot shut the doors of a global economy now. It's happened and will never go back to the way it was. Even communist China would have a hard time keeping out foreign influences if it ever decided to try and shut itself off from the world --- because they chose to participate in trading with other countries, that's the price they have to pay.
In America, the only way people will be able to keep their jobs or find work is by making yourself more marketable than a foreign worker. If that means you being willing to take a job that pays 40k/year with partial benefits versus 50+k with full benefits, so be it. Employees are no longer in the position to pick and choose their future - they need to relaize that an adjustment of lifestyle and expected salary may be necessary if one wants to stay in a particular part of the country or in a certain industry.
Wow ! I am so shocked that you actually believe the "globalization hype" I can't think straight. I'll only say this, the only way to make yourself "more marketable than a foreign worker" is to pay the company for you to work there !
You obviously don't work in a field that is affected by globalization. And I don't mean menial labor intensive jobs I'm talking about a skilled trade. I have talked with some of my "counterparts" in India and they basically live at the company in provided housing, they get to see there families once every couple of months (one individual lives over 12 hours away) and basically work for less than a quarter of what the job pays here. I'd be ecstatic to give up $10k a year to ensure me being employed. But that isn't the case , we aren't given that choice. The jobs just get shipped overseas and we get layed off , end of story. So tell me again , How is this helping the United States and it's people ? You would be spewing a different story if this directly effected you and your family. And don't tell me it's about education, some of us have worked from the ground up learning our trades, when that WAS the education that was needed for the career we chose. Again I see no benefit to the people other than the business owners and CEO's.
How is this helping the United States and it's people ?
Americans who are competitive and keep their jobs are able to buy products from other competitive makers instead of being forced to buy from a monopolistic local producer.
When I spend a dollar on U.S. made products, I have to earn around 1.50 to spend the dollar and that one dollar I spent is going to be .50 in the next person's pocket. Why should I have to earn a 1.50 to buy .50 worth of product? The least I can do to beat the system is to buy foreign so that my 1.50 goes further.
Add to that, American labor thinks they're worth five times as much as Chinese or Indian labor. I don't even like you. You make me wear a helmet or seatbelt when I'm in MI. I'd rather help support some nice foreign families who mind their own business.
Americans who are competitive and keep their jobs are able to buy products from other competitive makers instead of being forced to buy from a monopolistic local producer.
When I spend a dollar on U.S. made products, I have to earn around 1.50 to spend the dollar and that one dollar I spent is going to be .50 in the next person's pocket. Why should I have to earn a 1.50 to buy .50 worth of product? The least I can do to beat the system is to buy foreign so that my 1.50 goes further.
Add to that, American labor thinks they're worth five times as much as Chinese or Indian labor. I don't even like you. You make me wear a helmet or seatbelt when I'm in MI. I'd rather help support some nice foreign families who mind their own business.
Make sense?
It's just sad to see people like yourself that are completely brainwashed or un informed.
"you make me wear a helmet or seatbelt when I'm in MI" Sorry you lost me on that one.
It's just sad to see people like yourself that are completely brainwashed or un informed.
"you make me wear a helmet or seatbelt when I'm in MI" Sorry you lost me on that one.
Oh, it's a tribute to the so many Americans who want to mind someone else's business... Whether it be forcing others to use safety equipment against their will or forcing them to participate in the socialized retirement fund that rips us off so thoroughly or using strong-arm tactics to coerce investors to pay a forced wage instead of market wage.
I like it that you're worried about your job. I like it that you might be homeless... because you've infringed on my freedom. And if it means the implosion of America rather than sustaining a socialist state, I say the sooner the better.
What shocks me is that some of you hold the opinion that Americans who cherish freedom would team up with you when you're infringing on freedom. It's crazy.
Be competitive. You don't deserve customers on account of where you live. You don't deserve a job.
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Sorry you lost me on that one.
