[darstar]

We will be living with more and more Socialists things as the population grows. ...Buy the way, whats wrong with Socialism any way ? I do not know of any senior citizen ( the group is growing fast ),that is unhappy about getting the " socialist check" every month. If anything, its not nearly enough. Yes, I qualify as a consumer of that form of Socialism that's been with us for a long time, there are many many more. Seems the Right winger nuts are always looking for talking points that have little meaning, this is one of them that has to fall on deaf ears of any intel. person on the Planet period !

[detwahDJ]

Originally Posted by darstar

And they want the American people to support them ? Just how dumb do these neo cons think we are. I really would like to consider making a difference in our home state and the Nation, but the frustration I think would drive me nuts. I think serving in a new state and status Country might be more my calling, but, so far am not holding my breath.

Don't be discouraged - more and more people are waking up to what's going on. You would be joining many others (don't know how connected you are). But there is much more happening behind the scenes than just the Occupy movement. People don't know about all of it because - well, who owns the media!
Fox has created a wall between liberal/conservative when there is, and always has been, overlap. Divide and conquer is what Fox is about (just scrutinize their treatment of every issue)! The progressive movement is about restoring old style, honest business practices with true competition - with some of the old-style "my word is my bond" type of conservatism (different from today's Fox). This means a regulated free market, but not a govt-owned one.
There is growing recognition that huge multinationals and banks are bleeding this country dry, and "vulture capitalism" has replaced small businesses. Money begets money, so the more you have the easier to get more, creating imbalance.
Here's a question for the Fox Right which constantly harps on "redistribution of wealth" - why is lowered tax rates on the super wealthy not the same?
If, as the right wing says, everything govt does is "socialism", then what is "govt of the people" all about? Do away with democracy? Please!

[nycinmichigan]

Originally Posted by michigan83

Well, it shouldn't have come off that way. I was only responding to the comments you had made in the previous post, which means I was referring to every group of people that you had criticized in your post. Since there are plenty of liberal police officers and businessmen, I was inherently defending them too. For the record, I think most non-conservatives are good and upstanding people too. I just disagree with them.

Anyway, I did read all of your post, and I found it interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of your views. I don't think I have ever debated with an "official" socialist before, so that is kinda cool. I realize that your motive is to create a better society, just like me. But I think your ideas have been tried before without much success (I'm sure you've heard that a billion times too.) You know, due to the whole human nature thing that I keep talking about. I think it makes successful socialism impossible, because humans will find ways to get out of the numbness of "perfect equality."

But, anyhow... there's probably not much point in continuing to go back and forth, because we are on different planets.

Not so. I think the continuing of this discussion is absolutely and completely vital to the human race. We all have to learn to get along. It's required. And you are right, it's been tried before. I just want to believe that maybe we could find a good symbiosis. The times we have tried have turned into COMMUNISM which is not SOCIALISM. Socialism has elements of capitalism. Whereas there is NO PERSONAL PROPERTY in communism. Socialism creates a baseline for all, then allows you to earn beyond that point. If you are satisfied with the baseline, great! If you want more, that's there too. Its got the good elements of capitalism without the bad parts. It's all the best parts of communism and all the best parts of capitalism and none of the (hopefully) bad parts of either.

In any case it's always fun to have these discussions because greater understanding could lead to changes on everyone's part that better America. And that is what we all want!

[detwahDJ]

Originally Posted by nycinmichigan

------. Socialism has elements of capitalism. Whereas there is NO PERSONAL PROPERTY in communism. Socialism creates a baseline for all, then allows you to earn beyond that point. If you are satisfied with the baseline, great! If you want more, that's there too. Its got the good elements of capitalism without the bad parts. It's all the best parts of communism and all the best parts of capitalism and none of the (hopefully) bad parts of either.
In any case it's always fun to have these discussions because greater understanding could lead to changes on everyone's part that better America. And that is what we all want!

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont calls himself a "Democratic socialist". He allows no lobbyists into his office. He is a "progressive" in that he is for a regulated capitalism - recognizing that "hands off" Wall Street has allowed creeping malfeasance to set in. Fox is calling him an enemy.
Reagan started the anti-govt movement, foolishly believing (suckered?) that anti-trust laws were a hindrance to businesses - so we now have a Wall Street which can gamble, crash the eonomy, and become "too big to fail" - holding taxpayers hostage. Now, a handful of huge banks, whose lobbyists have infiltrated our govt, can run the affairs of the planet (and Michigan). Their footprint is everywhere - in all states. This is why we must pay attention to what our elected governors are doing, and looking for patterns of behavior.