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Well, Scottmi, I can see why you might have trouble getting a job in TC, or anywhere else for that matter. Your post quoted above sounds like it was written by a narrow-minded snob masquerading (Halloween IS coming) as an educated, hip young man (if only in your mind). Believe it or not, when interviewers encounter such a person they can see it...much as anyone who reads your post can see bitterness, insecurity and spite dripping from nearly every word.
You presume to know the hearts and minds and business of business owners in TC and, by implication, the TC region...what a laugh. Ever hired anyone? Ever been responsible for doing anything but cashing your paycheck? Ever had to make enough money to write paychecks to hard working employees? I don't think so. Greedy, ignorant business owners without any ambition or creativity only want to hire local "small minded" people who presumeably won't ruffle any feathers. Is that your point? I think you've given us a pretty good example of ignorance and small-mindedness, so I'll recognize it in the future. Thank you.
Unlike the chicken and the egg scenario, who did what concerning my attitude with TC is perfectly clear and true: If Traverse City gave two craps about its NON-WEALTHY residents, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter towards the area in general.
If an employer doesn't want to hire me because he thinks my attitude is too demanding or my words a little to sharp regarding certain topics, then so be it. But then he didn't hire me because I couldn't do a job, but rather because he didn't want me to do it. BIG difference.
In Traverse City, I've been around long enough to know how companies and business owners are. And this isn't just me talking out of my ass, one look at the companies in the area will tell you that very few (if any) businesses exist to become something larger than a small-town operation. Why is this important? Because if an owner is satisfied with his annual pay of $150k or higher while his workers scrimp by on $20-30k annually MAYBE with benefits, you can pretty much feel safe in knowing that things are not gonna get any better...for those low-level workers.
Like I said, there ARE people who do well in TC...although by and large these are people who luck into positions where the companies have deep pockets....like Hospitals, Law Firms, State Government Offices, Schools, etc. Once those jobs are filled, they generally stay filled.
And that's TC's big, big problem: There's absolutely NOTHING in the pipeline (and hasn't been for years and years) that can offer solid, reliable and fair/liveable pay to potential workers who aren't already in the area's FEW cushy positions.
Unlike the chicken and the egg scenario, who did what concerning my attitude with TC is perfectly clear and true: If Traverse City gave two craps about its NON-WEALTHY residents, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter towards the area in general.
If an employer doesn't want to hire me because he thinks my attitude is too demanding or my words a little to sharp regarding certain topics, then so be it. But then he didn't hire me because I couldn't do a job, but rather because he didn't want me to do it. BIG difference.
In Traverse City, I've been around long enough to know how companies and business owners are. And this isn't just me talking out of my ass, one look at the companies in the area will tell you that very few (if any) businesses exist to become something larger than a small-town operation. Why is this important? Because if an owner is satisfied with his annual pay of $150k or higher while his workers scrimp by on $20-30k annually MAYBE with benefits, you can pretty much feel safe in knowing that things are not gonna get any better...for those low-level workers.
Like I said, there ARE people who do well in TC...although by and large these are people who luck into positions where the companies have deep pockets....like Hospitals, Law Firms, State Government Offices, Schools, etc. Once those jobs are filled, they generally stay filled.
And that's TC's big, big problem: There's absolutely NOTHING in the pipeline (and hasn't been for years and years) that can offer solid, reliable and fair/liveable pay to potential workers who aren't already in the area's FEW cushy positions.
Oh...so it's Traverse City that's to blame... well, of course! LOL If that darn city was just more generous...what a laugh.
If someone chooses not to hire you, it's because they are certain you're not the best person for the job. Few, if any, people want to hire a negative jerk, regardless of their skills. Why inflict such a person on the rest of the staff???
Part of getting and doing a good job (being a good employee) is being a positive and productive influence on the work environment and one's fellow workers....and if you fail in that regard you've got no one to blame but yourself. Or in your case, everyone else.
People don't "luck" into good, well paying jobs, unless you subscribe to my definition of luck : the convergence of preparation, motivation, and opportunity. Somehow I don't think you get that. "And this isn't just me talking out of my ass" Well, actually, it IS.... because that's certainly where your head is firmly planted.
Good luck to you...you'll need it.
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
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In 1961 i had an "unknown" disablity. I spent 3 years in Traverse City State Hospital for the wrong reasons.
Is that old brick building still standing?
I grew up near Boyne -- N of TC. I'd say you can expect 20-25% lower starting salary and lower than cost of living increases anywhere north of Grand Rapids even in good jobs. At the same time, I'd say that employee turnover will be very low. The reason is pretty simple -- no competition. There's simply no other place to go that's not doing the same thing. The cost of living on the other hand is higher than other parts of the state and will go up at national rates.
So my opinion is that TC is probably a nice play to live but not necessarily a nice place to work.
I grew up near Boyne -- N of TC. I'd say you can expect 20-25% lower starting salary ...
In 2005 it was actually 27.1% below state median so that probably translates to more like 30 - 40% less than downstate area.
http://www.nwmcog.org/data/DLEG-LMI-AnnualPlanning/WorkforceAnalysis.pdf (broken link)
The official number doesn't surprise me. I was kind of contributing anything above that to losses over time. When I interviewed at Munson, I was told that even after taking a 15K+ pay cut they would still couldn't hire me without increasing the salaries of their long term employees. Less than cost of living raises lower salaries over time so much that they can't pay anything close to market rates without making serious internal adjustments or just have a very inequitable situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxBait
In 2005 it was actually 27.1% below state median so that probably translates to more like 30 - 40% less than downstate area.
http://www.nwmcog.org/data/DLEG-LMI-AnnualPlanning/WorkforceAnalysis.pdf (broken link)
Wages and salaries in the North certainly are lower than Southern Michigan. As a long time self employed person I can also tell you that business profits are lower as well.
The fact is, between tourism and agriculture, NW MI has a seasonal economy and probably always will have.
It's also a beautiful area and attracts lots of people who WANT to live here. The upshot of that is there are lots of overqualified people looking for jobs....the equivalent of a buyers market in real estate. This, coupled with the seasonality of the economics of the region, does a lot to keep wages below downstate levels.
My chief dispute with scottmi regarding all this is that he sees the limitations of the NW MI economy as some sort of conspiracy by business owners to line their own pockets by starving their workers or not growing their businesses. Nonsense like this kinda sets me off...if you hadn't noticed.
Businesses exist to (and must) turn a fair profit, not just to provide work for self-important nitwits like scottmi.
Until a few years ago I owned a business that employed over 100 people, almost three quarters of whom were seasonal, and I can tell you that a hidden but very real cost of doing a seasonal business is the huge expense in training new people every Spring, only to have to lay them off in the Fall. I'd have liked nothing better than to be able to keep everyone working, but the work just wasn't there. I was extremely grateful for those folks who would return to me the following Spring (some for over 20 years) and I showed it with bonus's and higher wages reflecting my lower training costs and their higher productivity.
Also, the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance and utility bills are NOT seasonal...
NW MI (not just Traverse City) CAN be a tough place to make a living, but it's no easier for the business owner than it is the employee. Just think about how many retail and restaurant businesses you know of that have gone out of business in the last few years, just for starters. Every shuttered business means someone just lost a LOT of money, maybe everything they have. And an entrepreneur closing up shop can't just go file for unemployment benefits like employees can.
Despite the odds, people with good ideas and a strong work ethic CAN and DO grow, succeed, and provide jobs for others. The new Cherry Republic business that just opened a branch in downtown TC is a perfect example. The owner started out with a T-shirt and a good idea in Glen Arbor, now he's purchased a major downtown TC building and employs a ton of people. There are many stories like this in the region.
Wages and salaries in the North certainly are lower than Southern Michigan. As a long time self employed person I can also tell you that business profits are lower as well.
The fact is, between tourism and agriculture, NW MI has a seasonal economy and probably always will have.
It's also a beautiful area and attracts lots of people who WANT to live here. The upshot of that is there are lots of overqualified people looking for jobs....the equivalent of a buyers market in real estate. This, coupled with the seasonality of the economics of the region, does a lot to keep wages below downstate levels.
My chief dispute with scottmi regarding all this is that he sees the limitations of the NW MI economy as some sort of conspiracy by business owners to line their own pockets by starving their workers or not growing their businesses. Nonsense like this kinda sets me off...if you hadn't noticed.
Businesses exist to (and must) turn a fair profit, not just to provide work for self-important nitwits like scottmi.
Until a few years ago I owned a business that employed over 100 people, almost three quarters of whom were seasonal, and I can tell you that a hidden but very real cost of doing a seasonal business is the huge expense in training new people every Spring, only to have to lay them off in the Fall. I'd have liked nothing better than to be able to keep everyone working, but the work just wasn't there. I was extremely grateful for those folks who would return to me the following Spring (some for over 20 years) and I showed it with bonus's and higher wages reflecting my lower training costs and their higher productivity.
Also, the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance and utility bills are NOT seasonal...
NW MI (not just Traverse City) CAN be a tough place to make a living, but it's no easier for the business owner than it is the employee. Just think about how many retail and restaurant businesses you know of that have gone out of business in the last few years, just for starters. Every shuttered business means someone just lost a LOT of money, maybe everything they have. And an entrepreneur closing up shop can't just go file for unemployment benefits like employees can.
Despite the odds, people with good ideas and a strong work ethic CAN and DO grow, succeed, and provide jobs for others. The new Cherry Republic business that just opened a branch in downtown TC is a perfect example. The owner started out with a T-shirt and a good idea in Glen Arbor, now he's purchased a major downtown TC building and employs a ton of people. There are many stories like this in the region.
Alright, well I finally understand **WHY** you can't seem to understand my perspective on the TC economy / job market. YOU'RE A BUSINESS OWNER!!!
You're obviously not some guy with a pick up truck who has two part-time helpers or something...you employed over 100 people and whether it was year-round or just seasonal, you obviously were never hurting for money.
I think why me saying things like "TC companies want small-town-mind people as employees over outsiders" is because maybe that's not the way YOU operate. If you honestly would give an outsider as much of a chance as a regular TC-area resident, then that's great. But you are STILL in the minority.
And no offense, but most people can't base their lives around seasonal employment.
So yes, I understand that TC's economy survives off tourism. However, when it comes to tourism, usually the only people that make any money off of it are the business owners. The people selling cherries or maintaining the golf courses are probably making okay pay in terms of job difficulty / responsibility but how many people (especially after they're out of those early twenties years or out of college even) will (or even can) make plans of buying a house, a car, raising kids, getting married, etc. when the best job they can find will pay them peanuts???
I think you also have a screwball idea of what I think is a liveable/fair wage in TC.
I think if you have a Bachelor's Degree and have a job in your field with a couple years of experience under your belt (regardless of profession), you should be making NO LESS than $30,000 annually with GOOD benefits that don't rip you off (about $14/hr).
If you have 5-10 years worth of experience and the same educational background, you should have the same benefits (which can cover a spouse, children) and be making AT LEAST $40,000 annually.
If you have 15-20+ years and all the above, you should be easily making $45,000-$50,000 annually NO PROBLEM.
Now is that unreasonable? Hell no. But I'll tell you what TC's problem is: The owners of businesses know that there are many qualified people out there who perhaps can't easily move to another part of Michigan or out of state and as a result, they deliberately pay people $thousands$ less than they should and don't offer benefits because they can.
This summer I worked for a TC business for a SHORT time thank God (won't say which, only that they did something directly related to my degree/field) that was VERY small...only about 8 people total. But the business had been around for 6 or 7 years and everyone but two guys were working a steady 40 hrs. a week. I was offered (and had to take) a measly $12/hr.......and there was NO 401k option and absolutely NO health insurance offered. The owner who was virtually always gone eventually talked about getting some coverage but for just me, I'd have to pay nearly $200/mo. for it.
Obviously, no one wanted it and it turns out that the owner (who always said he couldn't pay people more because his business wasn't big enough to support it) was paying $7,000 A MONTH for his own family's health insurance (no doubt the highest end Blue Closs medical/dental/vision plans). And later I found out that the company made almost a million dollars every year in sales and the owner was making close to a couple hundred grand annually.
This company's employees has such ****-poor morale that by the end of the summer 5 of the 8 people (owner included in the 8) LEFT and 1 of the part-time guys was planning on jumping ship soon after. I've seen this same thing happened at places my Dad has worked, my sister, my two brothers and where friends in the area have dealt with also.
I'm no idiot and realize this happens everywhere....what makes this a major issue in TC is that the economy simply can't support SO MANY bosses treating employees like this. Numbers-wise, the amount of money generated in TC is only so much and if you have 500 business owners in TC sucking up 75-80% of the available income for ALL TC-area residents, you have a major friggin' issue at hand.
THAT is the typical TC/Northern Michigan business model / food chain. The business owner feasts while all the lackies they employ starve.
Don't even try to argue with this tecpatl because THIS is the WAY the world up there operates - like it or not.
Unfortunately, ScottMI is correct with most of his statements. Traverse City isn't totally at fault because Northern Michigan is bad for the most part. I have lived N. Mich for all of my life and I got a job in TC after college because I could start right away and it was close to home. I wish I would have looked else where. I have had other job offers in the area that I have declined only because I know that they will pay crappy as well. The funny thing is that the U.P. is supposed to be in worse shape then Traverse City but there was a job in my field starting out at $10/hr more then what I am getting paid now. I have also seen jobs in Southern Michigan and the rest of the U.S. that pay around 5-10/hr more starting out. My girlfriend took almost a $5/hr pay cut to work at Munsun and work environment is not as nice as it was in Grand Rapids. It must be cheaper to get surgery up here because they pay ALL of their employees less. Munson also states that they pay well for the area because they have no one besides Petoskeyto compare pay with since they own hostitals in all the large areas outside of Traverse(Cadillac, Gaylord, Grayling, Kalkaska and few others). Plus there is no large University to take classes at to work towards getting another degree. I suggest staying as far away from TC as possible if you are under 30 and plan on attending school or have just finished school. Pay sucks, rent is high, night life is non-existant and there are too many tourists. The city is big enough to be annoying yet too small to have anything a real city has. It's a big excuse up here, "Northern Michigan, Northern Michigan...blah blah blah view of the bay, half the pay". I might deal with the pay issue when I'm 40 and have kids and want them to go to good schools but I just feel like this place is starting to make me depressed and I just want to warn the 20 somethings about it so that they don't experience the same thing.
In 1961 i had an "unknown" disablity. I spent 3 years in Traverse City State Hospital for the wrong reasons.
Is that old brick building still standing?
MK: You'll be interested to know that the old State Hospital, or at least large parts of it, has a new and vibrant life. After the State shut it down it pretty much sat there rotting, as plan after plan for other uses were designed debated and cast aside.
Finally, one of those evil local Business Owners that scottmi blames for the sad state of his life took the issue by the horns, put up LOTS of his own money and just started the redevelopment. While there is still a lot to do, the Grand Traverse Commons is flourishing and growing like a weed. Restaurants, galleries, housing, a prize winning winery, an artisan bread bakery, lots of things are locating there.
It's great to see....why even those poor ol' 20-somethings seem to like it, and some find jobs there as well.
As a high school student I visited that place in the mid-60s, and it was a pretty sad, almost shocking experience. I'm glad you made it out of there and into a productive life.
Here is one place to check it out: The Village at Grand Traverse Commons ,but there are more if you google it.
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Nw Mi
