Possibly moving to Traverse City (Grand Rapids, Cadillac: sales, health insurance, mortgage)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In order for me to make it here, I have to work two jobs. What's the point in living someplace like this if you can't enjoy it?...
Not much. I've been building/remodeling on and off in the TC area since 1975. At least half of the projects were on the bay or lakes. Despite all the traffic and throngs of busy people, I rarely see anyone out on the water during the week. Even the weekends don't see much. At Skegemog lake this week I only heard one boat. I have a customer with an office building on west bay. I never need to get a key to work there on the weekend because he's usually there. Its all nose-to-the-grindstone for everyone just to pay the bills.
I haven't been around this forum for a while, but I can see that scottmi is posting the same old misinformation. Traverse City is the fastest growing community of its size in the midwest. They are predicting that population in the grand traverse area will grow to 250,000 in 20 more years. It is an incredible community of people who really care to "get it right" -- and there are some wonderful public planning processes occuring right now. The schools are not just good, they are excellent and one of the best in the state. It is laughable to say that the view of the bay is the only thing going for TC. And it's laughable to say that the economic growth has been stagnant.
I think you are a young 20-something, is that right scottmi? Why is a young person your age even spending time online posting bitter messages? Geez, when I was your age I sure had a lot more going on. If you don't like it where you are, then why the heck don't you pack your bags and move on to bigger and better things? Northern MI is certainly never going to be a hotbed of jobs or excitement. When I was your age I up and left after college. I've lived in some different communities around the U.S. and have broadened my horizons. And I can tell you that Traverse City is a wonderful community to live in and raise a family. The bottom line is that you are a young person with very little perspective yet. I don't mean that unkindly, just honestly.
You hit the nail on the head. I moved here 3 years ago from LI because we were sick of the crowding and traffic. TC has changed in the 3 years we've been here. Still, some people are insular, out of touch and ignorant. They still allow smoking in bars and restaurants in this county. They are 10+ years behind the times but they will get it right eventually. If you want to go bowling, you need to fumigate your clothes for a week afterwards. If you go 5mph over the limit, they'll bang you for $115. The Sheriffs department is primarily responsible for generating revenue for the county and they do a very good job. It is a beautiful place but the locals are still wary of outsiders. I've experienced prejudice here but attribute it to most of them being basically clueless and not being able to afford cable TV. They complain vehemently about visitors in the summer even though these same visitors contribute huge bucks to the local economy. Tough place to make a living unless you own a business or live mortgage-free.
They are 10+ years behind the times but they will get it right eventually.
It is a beautiful place but the locals are still wary of outsiders. I've experienced prejudice here but attribute it to most of them being basically clueless and not being able to afford cable TV.
Could it be that the prejudice you have experienced comes from carrying this type of attitude around? 10 years behind the times, clueless, too poor to afford cable... come on now, if somebody came to you with that attitude would you toss out the red carpet? It isn't Long Island, there has to be a reason you chose TC over LI, why try to make TC into LI. Just a thought.
I haven't been around this forum for a while, but I can see that scottmi is posting the same old misinformation. Traverse City is the fastest growing community of its size in the midwest. They are predicting that population in the grand traverse area will grow to 250,000 in 20 more years. It is an incredible community of people who really care to "get it right" -- and there are some wonderful public planning processes occuring right now. The schools are not just good, they are excellent and one of the best in the state. It is laughable to say that the view of the bay is the only thing going for TC. And it's laughable to say that the economic growth has been stagnant.
I think you are a young 20-something, is that right scottmi? Why is a young person your age even spending time online posting bitter messages? Geez, when I was your age I sure had a lot more going on. If you don't like it where you are, then why the heck don't you pack your bags and move on to bigger and better things? Northern MI is certainly never going to be a hotbed of jobs or excitement. When I was your age I up and left after college. I've lived in some different communities around the U.S. and have broadened my horizons. And I can tell you that Traverse City is a wonderful community to live in and raise a family. The bottom line is that you are a young person with very little perspective yet. I don't mean that unkindly, just honestly.
You're right, I am in my mid twenties and I realize Traverse City is where to go if you have kids or are old/retired. By that point in your life you just want something simple and relaxing.
HOWEVER
Don't give me this crap about Traverse City being a metropolis in the making. I have been aware of TC's state my whole life because I either have been there directly or had relatives that lived there and relayed info.
"They are predicting that population in the grand traverse area will grow to 250,000 in 20 more years."
Hahahaha!!!! WHO is saying THIS? Traverse WILL NEVER be that large because the State never gives money north of Grand Rapids! Traverse doesn't even have a University nearby and is too far away from normal expressway routes for it to make economic sense to be the location for big manufacturing businesses. TC is gonna stay the way it is FOREVER. Look at Meijer's in Acme! They have been FIGHTING to get that built for half a decade now and it still is nowhere! ONE FRIGGIN' STORE! How on earth can a bassackwards city like TC ever grow and develop to accomodate a population of 250k? It won't! Oh, and have you ever tried to navigate through TC during Cherry festival? The city was poorly planned and even worse maintained.
The city is NOT growing and for the longest time, the only people truly pumping money into the economy were folks from down south who wanted vacation homes. You take the tourist aspect away from TC and *poof* there goes the town. It's ALL it has and while it must be doing well enough to be the largest city north of GR in Michigan, I seriously doubt that Munson could pick up the slack of TC's residents if many needed jobs all of a sudden.
And I'm going out on a limb here in thinking you are retired or no longer have kids in the K-12 age bracket, right? If so, how are you even aware of what the school systems are even like? How can you honestly say (with all your WISE years of life knowledge) that closing down schools is a GOOD thing and a GOOD indicator of a GOOD economy/education system? That's nonsense.
For your info I come here occasionally just to see what people are talking about. I'm from a generation of tech-savvy people where it's okay and expected for us to like surfin' the net and going through messageboards. What's your excuse "Oh-Wise-Elder"??? I'm not trying to start anything with you I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic - it's OKAY for you to post here 'cause your OLD but not okay for me to post because I'm YOUNG?
Whatever. Rot in TC like those craptastic cherries they plug annually.
Could it be that the prejudice you have experienced comes from carrying this type of attitude around? 10 years behind the times, clueless, too poor to afford cable... come on now, if somebody came to you with that attitude would you toss out the red carpet? It isn't Long Island, there has to be a reason you chose TC over LI, why try to make TC into LI. Just a thought.
No, but what he's saying is true. If you are job hunting and show any sign of being independent (I mean that you have lived someplace OTHER than TC area in your adult life) companies will be extremely leery of hiring you. Not because of the wages you might expect or the attitude you have from living other places but because they want TC residents who have never lived elsewhere to fill TC job positions.
They want small minded people working for them because the companies up there have no ambition or desire to be more than they are. Owners are content w/ them being the only person at a company making good money and are terrified of risking anything for the good of the employees.
Plain and simple, that's the truth. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you might not encounter this but by and large, this is what goes on.
Traverse city sucks. If you want to make money and are young then don't live here. Renting here is a pain and you get crappy places for high prices. Low pay and high cost of living compared to rest of Michigan. Michigan is doing bad so prepare to do worse then most of Michigan. If you are a doctor or make more then 100,000 a year then I would say it would be perfect. Move here if you like q-tips, tourists, and young people that don't work because they have parents that support them. Sorry if I'm negative but it's the truth and I can't wait to leave(1-year lease).
Oh, I never said I would live in TC. Personally I don't like the city at all. I have a cousin that lives there and owns his own shop, he is doing quite well. I was born in Ludington, graduated HS from the Soo and cannot stand the big influx of fudgies. TC would drive me over the edge especially during the Cherry Festival.
What I was saying is that a superior attitude doesn't fly. Coming from high tourist areas, I can attest to the fact that if somebody moves into an area and starts talking smack about local intelligence, area, education,etc... the first thing that comes to mind is "You chose to move here, we were born here. You don't like it, pack-up and move on." I could care less if somebody has $10 in the bank or 10 million in the bank. Attitude is what counts and that is what counts with everybody I know. Business owners and workers alike.
No, but what he's saying is true. If you are job hunting and show any sign of being independent (I mean that you have lived someplace OTHER than TC area in your adult life) companies will be extremely leery of hiring you. Not because of the wages you might expect or the attitude you have from living other places but because they want TC residents who have never lived elsewhere to fill TC job positions.
They want small minded people working for them because the companies up there have no ambition or desire to be more than they are. Owners are content w/ them being the only person at a company making good money and are terrified of risking anything for the good of the employees.
Plain and simple, that's the truth. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you might not encounter this but by and large, this is what goes on.
Well, Scottmi, I can see why you might have trouble getting a job in TC, or anywhere else for that matter. Your post quoted above sounds like it was written by a narrow-minded snob masquerading (Halloween IS coming) as an educated, hip young man (if only in your mind). Believe it or not, when interviewers encounter such a person they can see it...much as anyone who reads your post can see bitterness, insecurity and spite dripping from nearly every word.
You presume to know the hearts and minds and business of business owners in TC and, by implication, the TC region...what a laugh. Ever hired anyone? Ever been responsible for doing anything but cashing your paycheck? Ever had to make enough money to write paychecks to hard working employees? I don't think so. Greedy, ignorant business owners without any ambition or creativity only want to hire local "small minded" people who presumeably won't ruffle any feathers. Is that your point? I think you've given us a pretty good example of ignorance and small-mindedness, so I'll recognize it in the future. Thank you.
You're right, I am in my mid twenties and I realize Traverse City is where to go if you have kids or are old/retired. By that point in your life you just want something simple and relaxing.
HOWEVER
Don't give me this crap about Traverse City being a metropolis in the making. I have been aware of TC's state my whole life because I either have been there directly or had relatives that lived there and relayed info.
"They are predicting that population in the grand traverse area will grow to 250,000 in 20 more years."
Hahahaha!!!! WHO is saying THIS? Traverse WILL NEVER be that large because the State never gives money north of Grand Rapids! Traverse doesn't even have a University nearby and is too far away from normal expressway routes for it to make economic sense to be the location for big manufacturing businesses. TC is gonna stay the way it is FOREVER. Look at Meijer's in Acme! They have been FIGHTING to get that built for half a decade now and it still is nowhere! ONE FRIGGIN' STORE! How on earth can a bassackwards city like TC ever grow and develop to accomodate a population of 250k? It won't! Oh, and have you ever tried to navigate through TC during Cherry festival? The city was poorly planned and even worse maintained.
The city is NOT growing and for the longest time, the only people truly pumping money into the economy were folks from down south who wanted vacation homes. You take the tourist aspect away from TC and *poof* there goes the town. It's ALL it has and while it must be doing well enough to be the largest city north of GR in Michigan, I seriously doubt that Munson could pick up the slack of TC's residents if many needed jobs all of a sudden.
And I'm going out on a limb here in thinking you are retired or no longer have kids in the K-12 age bracket, right? If so, how are you even aware of what the school systems are even like? How can you honestly say (with all your WISE years of life knowledge) that closing down schools is a GOOD thing and a GOOD indicator of a GOOD economy/education system? That's nonsense.
For your info I come here occasionally just to see what people are talking about. I'm from a generation of tech-savvy people where it's okay and expected for us to like surfin' the net and going through messageboards. What's your excuse "Oh-Wise-Elder"??? I'm not trying to start anything with you I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic - it's OKAY for you to post here 'cause your OLD but not okay for me to post because I'm YOUNG?
Whatever. Rot in TC like those craptastic cherries they plug annually.
Dude, why so bitter? Geez, no wonder you haven't been able to find a job. I'm sure they spot that gigantic chip on your shoulder a mile away.
Well, I'm not sure that I qualify for geezer status just yet -- although you may think so (tech savvy youngster that you are). I'm all of 40 -- which makes me ancient and over the hill, huh?
I also happen to have 2 kids in elementary school, so I think I'm pretty qualified to comment on that. I've had them in out of state schools too, so I think I have some PERSPECTIVE. See, that's what I'm saying. You are young, have never really lived other places (yes, short stint in chicago), and you don't have kids. So I don't think you are quite as qualified to judge TC schools. Yes, they closed three shools (really 2 because one will reopen to house the ever-growing montessori program). It's not great, but it's hardly a sign of doom. If you actually knew more about what is happening demographically in public schools, this would make sense to you. I won't go on about it here, but the fact that they closed 2 schools does not change the fact that they are one of the best school districts in the state. There are so many sources and statistics for you to check this out (tech savvy youngster that you are, I know you'll do this).
Why do you spout off about population issues when you obviously don't know what you are talking about. First, I did NOT say that the pop of TC proper was going to be 250,00. I said that the pop of the grand traverse AREA is going to grow to 250,000 in the next 20 or so years. Right now the pop of gt county is nearly 100,000. Factor in the immediate surrounding counties and why is it so hard to believe the pop will double in this time period? The pop of gt county has grown nearly 20 percent for each of the last several decades. Since you're such a tech savvy youngster, I'm sure you'll be able to search out the appropriate documentation. Need some help? Check census bureau, chamber, TCAPS planning docs, couinty planning docs, etc. It's all there buddy. As far as how the area will handle the increase in population, that's exactly why there is a big regional planning effort currently taking place. Do you know anything about it? Didn't think so.
Now that hardly makes TC a metropolis. It will always be a sleepy smallish community. Exciting is not a word that comes to mind. Just a nice place to raise a family if you like that sort of thing. I don't think you should stay in the area. If I was a tech savvy youngster with any sort of gumption, I'd take off and see what other opportunities and places are out there. Oh yeah, I did do that. See, that why I actually have some PERSPECTIVE and EXPERIENCE.
So I'm wondering, why haven't you done that? You never answered that question. I don't care what you say about being young and tech savvy... anyone who is your age and so bitter needs to do a little reflection.
Dude, why so bitter? Geez, no wonder you haven't been able to find a job. I'm sure they spot that gigantic chip on your shoulder a mile away.
Well, I'm not sure that I qualify for geezer status just yet -- although you may think so (tech savvy youngster that you are). I'm all of 40 -- which makes me ancient and over the hill, huh?
I also happen to have 2 kids in elementary school, so I think I'm pretty qualified to comment on that. I've had them in out of state schools too, so I think I have some PERSPECTIVE. See, that's what I'm saying. You are young, have never really lived other places (yes, short stint in chicago), and you don't have kids. So I don't think you are quite as qualified to judge TC schools. Yes, they closed three shools (really 2 because one will reopen to house the ever-growing montessori program). It's not great, but it's hardly a sign of doom. If you actually knew more about what is happening demographically in public schools, this would make sense to you. I won't go on about it here, but the fact that they closed 2 schools does not change the fact that they are one of the best school districts in the state. There are so many sources and statistics for you to check this out (tech savvy youngster that you are, I know you'll do this).
Why do you spout off about population issues when you obviously don't know what you are talking about. First, I did NOT say that the pop of TC proper was going to be 250,00. I said that the pop of the grand traverse AREA is going to grow to 250,000 in the next 20 or so years. Right now the pop of gt county is nearly 100,000. Factor in the immediate surrounding counties and why is it so hard to believe the pop will double in this time period? The pop of gt county has grown nearly 20 percent for each of the last several decades. Since you're such a tech savvy youngster, I'm sure you'll be able to search out the appropriate documentation. Need some help? Check census bureau, chamber, TCAPS planning docs, couinty planning docs, etc. It's all there buddy. As far as how the area will handle the increase in population, that's exactly why there is a big regional planning effort currently taking place. Do you know anything about it? Didn't think so.
Now that hardly makes TC a metropolis. It will always be a sleepy smallish community. Exciting is not a word that comes to mind. Just a nice place to raise a family if you like that sort of thing. I don't think you should stay in the area. If I was a tech savvy youngster with any sort of gumption, I'd take off and see what other opportunities and places are out there. Oh yeah, I did do that. See, that why I actually have some PERSPECTIVE and EXPERIENCE.
So I'm wondering, why haven't you done that? You never answered that question. I don't care what you say about being young and tech savvy... anyone who is your age and so bitter needs to do a little reflection.
I'm not living up in that area anymore on a daily-basis and haven't been for nearly a year now. I visit occasionally because I have family up there but that's it. Trust me, TC couldn't pay me enough to stay up there, and they WON'T! (...one last thing I don't have to worry about). And I'm not unemployed, smart-mouth. I work in my field and am doing pretty well downstate. Is it what I would have been making back in the late 90s? No way. But do I get benefits, decent pay, etc.? Yeah, I got lucky in that respect...and apparently I'm not so VILE no company would want me. Get over your arrogant TC-self.
You and the other poster say I sound bitter. Well, I am. I spent my entire young life up in that area buying stuff from the businesses, going to school in Kalkaska, Antrim & Traverse City schools, and working at several jobs for a year or longer each in regular retail and office environments. I even made a point to go to a nearby university so that I could possibly return to the area after graduating.
You know, all I got from TC......each and every damn time there was ever an opening in my field......was at best a call here and there WHEN MANY OTHER places like Chicago, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, etc. at least showed an interest and offered GOOD paying positions! And the competition was more fierce in those areas, so what was TC's excuse? Whenever I got close to getting a job in my field in TC the issue of pay would come up and most of places didn't offer benefits (ha!, are you serious?) and $12/hr. max....no joke.
You can live in la-la land all you want but TC's businesses are in the cat-bird's seat and enjoy paying people squat for their talents. I don't go into any job with just a few years under my belt and a degree expecting 50k annually but $12/hr.!?!?! Are you serious!?!?! It's not like rent is $350/mo. and everything is a 1/3 less...TC is one of the MOST EXPENSIVE places to live in Michigan.
Like I've said many times, if you are one of the lucky few that have a good paying decent job in TC, good for you. But don't act all high and mighty and believe it's everyone else's fault that they struggle or don't like TC. It's far more likely that YOU are the exception and you just got lucky...so don't get too cocky.
And who cares if I'm a manager or not? From what I've seen in my own interviews and talking to/hearing from hiring managers, the bottom line isn't who's the right fit for the job, it's: "Who can we hire that isn't the worst but will settle for scraps?"
As far as TC's size, I know you meant Grand Traverse COUNTY was gonna be 250k...the city I *think* is only 15k people...not very big at all. However, even to imply that the county's pop would double would suggest the city size would double as well...and that ain't gonna happen folks! The city is laid out too poorly and the folks who OWN and RUN the city HATE change.
Don't get the wrong idea either about me think "old" people are dumb or useless or something - because I don't feel that way. But I do feel strongly about my observations/experiences regarding the economy, cost of living, job market etc. and don't think they should be disregarded only because YOU believe I'm "not old enough yet to understand the world".
I understand this perfectly well though: If it weren't for all the baby boomers who have outdated skillsets in most industries but still expected hefty salaries they got used to years ago, the economy in Michigan [and overall] would be much better and more balanced.
You may not like it, but it's true. Deal with it.
Last edited by scottmi; 10-30-2007 at 02:57 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
).
