Camps, "temporary" structures and permits? (assessor, how much)

[deere110]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around how Maine views land use in terms of permanent vs. temporary structures, etc... At the advice of NMLM we are going to confine our search to towns considered "non-hostile" in terms of their requirements (or lack thereof) for building, zoning, and the like. Hypothetically, let's say I were to do the following:

Let's say I purchase some acreage and lay down a "foundation" consisting of 12" x 12" x 20' treated timbers laid in rows over a bed of level 3/4" clean stone. On top of this platform I construct an 18' x 24' cabin. Nearby I construct two smaller cabins using the same method (stone bed, timbers, 12' x 16' cabin set atop the timbers). Would these be considered permanent improvements to the land? How would they be taxed? Would I need permits to construct them? That's the easy part of this question

Now let's say that I wish to have flush toilets in each one of these cabins (I, along with my father and father-in-law would be fine with compost toilets but the womenfolk of the family feel differently ), so obviously no matter where you build in Maine this requires permits, and I would think that septics and wells would be considered permanent improvements to the land without a doubt-here comes the complicated part...How would a town look at non-permanent structures (the cabins) connected to a permanent well and septic system? Does the connection automatically make the structures permanent? Has anyone here run into a similar situation?

*EDIT*

This is interesting-according to the LURC (I know, I know, UT land has more regulations in some cases that individual towns) they define "permanent foundation" as:

"A supporting structure that extends below the frost line or is designed to permanently withstand freeze-thaw conditions. Permanent foundations include full foundations, basements, slabs, and frost walls. Sono-tubes or posts installed with augers are not considered permanent foundations."

[AustinB]

I would ask the town that you wish to do this in. They will be able to give you the real answers. we would be a bunch of guessers here.

[kellysmith]

You are trying to re-invented the wheel with little success...mud sills have been used to construct buildings for hundreds of years in Maine, and they are not considered "non-permanent" structures. It doesn't take a foundation in order to be considered a permanent structure. If you are dealing with an organized town, you will deal with their code enforcement, if non-organized, it will be LURC. Also, trying to put several cabins on the same septic would bring you more heartburn than you might expect. An approved design for a single family dwelling and one for a multi-family are not the same thing. I wouldn't even think about trying to get an approved design for multiple dwellings. Good Luck!!...but I don't think you are going to like the answers you find!

[deere110]

Originally Posted by kellysmith

You are trying to re-invented the wheel with little success...mud sills have been used to construct buildings for hundreds of years in Maine, and they are not considered "non-permanent" structures. It doesn't take a foundation in order to be considered a permanent structure. If you are dealing with an organized town, you will deal with their code enforcement, if non-organized, it will be LURC. Also, trying to put several cabins on the same septic would bring you more heartburn than you might expect. An approved design for a single family dwelling and one for a multi-family are not the same thing. I wouldn't even think about trying to get an approved design for multiple dwellings. Good Luck!!...but I don't think you are going to like the answers you find!

Thanks-I think? One of the things I love about the internet is how much information there is for free-which is why I spend a lot of time on it before opening my checkbook or signing on the dotted line for anything. One thing I've learned is that there are many ways to skin a cat. Perhaps it would be better to put each cabin on its own system, or maybe just put two bathrooms in the main cabin and have the other two just be sleeping quarters.

[retiredtinbender]

Originally Posted by deere110

I'm trying to wrap my brain around how Maine views land use in terms of permanent vs. temporary structures, etc... At the advice of NMLM we are going to confine our search to towns considered "non-hostile" in terms of their requirements (or lack thereof) for building, zoning, and the like. Hypothetically, let's say I were to do the following:

Let's say I purchase some acreage and lay down a "foundation" consisting of 12" x 12" x 20' treated timbers laid in rows over a bed of level 3/4" clean stone. On top of this platform I construct an 18' x 24' cabin. Nearby I construct two smaller cabins using the same method (stone bed, timbers, 12' x 16' cabin set atop the timbers). Would these be considered permanent improvements to the land? How would they be taxed? Would I need permits to construct them? That's the easy part of this question

Now let's say that I wish to have flush toilets in each one of these cabins (I, along with my father and father-in-law would be fine with compost toilets but the womenfolk of the family feel differently ), so obviously no matter where you build in Maine this requires permits, and I would think that septics and wells would be considered permanent improvements to the land without a doubt-here comes the complicated part...How would a town look at non-permanent structures (the cabins) connected to a permanent well and septic system? Does the connection automatically make the structures permanent? Has anyone here run into a similar situation?

*EDIT*

This is interesting-according to the LURC (I know, I know, UT land has more regulations in some cases that individual towns) they define "permanent foundation" as:

"A supporting structure that extends below the frost line or is designed to permanently withstand freeze-thaw conditions. Permanent foundations include full foundations, basements, slabs, and frost walls. Sono-tubes or posts installed with augers are not considered permanent foundations."

If you building in UT ask LURC, if its a town then go talk to the CEO and assessor to get the straight "skinny" on it. This is something you really want the straight poop on and not bank on the answers of strangers. You're looking at septic designs, plumbing and building permits. Go to the source. Please.

That said, I work in code enforcement and I'll tel ya, a garage on a slab (well above frost line) is considered a permanent structure and I would say your cabins would be the same. But different towns have different codes in some cases; just so long as they don't go against the state rules. I know in shoreland zoning the difference between temp and permanent is that temp is less than 7 months. Most towns assess buildings as to "cost to reconstruct, less depreciation". They'll look at how its built, how well and depreciate it.

[Nor'Eastah]

I think I know what you are trying to accomplish here. as part of what you want (the multi-family part) is also in our plans. We thought and thought about this, and figured we needed to think outside the box.

As septic systems are generally sized by number of bedrooms, what if...there were NO bedrooms (as in, the structure was NOT a home or "residence")? Yes, I know that commercial buildings need septic systems also, but that isn't where I'm going here.

What if you built a barn? Or a storage building, shop, tool shed, etc? Such structures can be quite sizeable, yet still classed as what you say it is. To my knowledge, these do not require wells or septic systems. As long as the outside of the building does not look like a "residence", likely no one would even know whether anyone "lived" there. After all, you could own the land and just be "working" there. In this case, moving an older RV camper onto the land would "cover" you for a "residence" if you really needed one.

If you live far enough out, and not really near any nosy neighbors, I think this would work. I also like the idea of the type of foundation you are proposing, as it will cut building costs significantly and is quite long-lasting.

We'll wait till NMLM comes by, and puts in his pronouncement!

[deere110]

Originally Posted by retiredtinbender

If you building in UT ask LURC, if its a town then go talk to the CEO and assessor to get the straight "skinny" on it. This is something you really want the straight poop on and not bank on the answers of strangers. You're looking at septic designs, plumbing and building permits. Go to the source. Please.

That said, I work in code enforcement and I'll tel ya, a garage on a slab (well above frost line) is considered a permanent structure and I would say your cabins would be the same. But different towns have different codes in some cases; just so long as they don't go against the state rules. I know in shoreland zoning the difference between temp and permanent is that temp is less than 7 months. Most towns assess buildings as to "cost to reconstruct, less depreciation". They'll look at how its built, how well and depreciate it.

That's helpful-thank you. As for getting "the straight poop" we certainly will when the time comes. We don't even know where we'll end up-I was just trying to get a rough idea. The rules are not going to make or break our decision to buy in Maine either. We'll evaluate the rules and regs of various areas when we narrow our search. Once we find the right piece of land at the right price, etc...then I'll reach out to that local inspector and have a discussion about what is permitted and what's not. If in fact my original idea is not permitted I'll come up with a new one The reason for such a scheme (separate bunkhouses with toilets) is to accommodate family needs. My wife and I used to "camp accommodations" where you sleep in a one room cabin with no running water and take a shower/go to the john in a central location somewhere else. We very much want our camp to be an extended family affair and want our parents to come up so that the grandparents, grandkids, etc...can all be together. However, both grandmothers are not crazy about the idea of walking from the bunkhouse to the main house at 3:00 to use the little girls' room. More information that you all probably wanted but I figured it would be useful if I explained myself.

Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah

I think I know what you are trying to accomplish here. as part of what you want (the multi-family part) is also in our plans. We thought and thought about this, and figured we needed to think outside the box.

As septic systems are generally sized by number of bedrooms, what if...there were NO bedrooms (as in, the structure was NOT a home or "residence")? Yes, I know that commercial buildings need septic systems also, but that isn't where I'm going here.

What if you built a barn? Or a storage building, shop, tool shed, etc? Such structures can be quite sizeable, yet still classed as what you say it is. To my knowledge, these do not require wells or septic systems. As long as the outside of the building does not look like a "residence", likely no one would even know whether anyone "lived" there. After all, you could own the land and just be "working" there. In this case, moving an older RV camper onto the land would "cover" you for a "residence" if you really needed one.

If you live far enough out, and not really near any nosy neighbors, I think this would work. I also like the idea of the type of foundation you are proposing, as it will cut building costs significantly and is quite long-lasting.

We'll wait till NMLM comes by, and puts in his pronouncement!

All good points-thanks! Basically my issue is that as I said above, we're looking to build something pretty simple, with one main creature comfort-running water, so I would think there's got to be a way to do it. I actually just e-mailed the Subsurface Wastewater Unit folks (I would have called but they're out today) outlining the idea and simply asking if it's something they've ever dealt with before. I would have to believe that they have, even if only in a commercial context. The Birches up on Moosehead Lake has 6 or 7 individual cabins equipped with full bathrooms which must be on a common septic. It will be interesting to see what they reply with. Good luck to you Nor'Eastah!

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by deere110

... Let's say I purchase some acreage and lay down a "foundation" consisting of 12" x 12" x 20' treated timbers laid in rows over a bed of level 3/4" clean stone. On top of this platform I construct an 18' x 24' cabin. Nearby I construct two smaller cabins using the same method (stone bed, timbers, 12' x 16' cabin set atop the timbers). Would these be considered permanent improvements to the land? How would they be taxed? Would I need permits to construct them? That's the easy part of this question

You may wish to avoid using the phrase 'foundation'. A 'foundation' usually means a permanent and taxable structure.

A camp can be on pontoons, piers, concrete blocks or skids and in all cases should be non-taxed.

A gravel pad with a 'mat' of 12"X12"s would work too. Though it would be serious overkill. You can buy pre-made mats like that.

Permits? No.

... Now let's say that I wish to have flush toilets in each one of these cabins

Good God man you do like to make things complicated.

Tell the females that when they get used to them, they will eventually 'love' composting toilets

And the money you save by not having a septic system, you can spend on her.

... How would a town look at non-permanent structures (the cabins) connected to a permanent well and septic system? Does the connection automatically make the structures permanent? Has anyone here run into a similar situation?

How would they look?

Ever see dollars signs in a fellas eyes?




"LURC ... define "permanent foundation" as: "A supporting structure that extends below the frost line or is designed to permanently withstand freeze-thaw conditions. Permanent foundations include full foundations, basements, slabs, and frost walls. Sono-tubes or posts installed with augers are not considered permanent foundations."

Sweet.

Avoid: full foundations, basements, slabs, and frost walls.

Sono-tubes or posts are your friend. As are pontoons, concrete blocks, or skids.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

Good God man you do like to make things complicated. Tell the females that when they get used to them, they will eventually 'love' composting toilets And the money you save by not having a septic system, you can spend on her.

Did I ever tell you how much I enjoy reading your replies? I do take issue with that making things complicated bit though-they (meaning the females) make things complicated. I'd just as soon find a fallen log and some good leaves!

[retiredtinbender]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

You may wish to avoid using the phrase 'foundation'. A 'foundation' usually means a permanent and taxable structure.

A camp can be on pontoons, piers, concrete blocks or skids and in all cases should be non-taxed.

A gravel pad with a 'mat' of 12"X12"s would work too. Though it would be serious overkill. You can buy pre-made mats like that.

There is very little in this state that is "non-taxed"; should or otherwise. If it's a structure it will get taxed unnless (in some cases) it is under $1,000. Even in the UT the state assessors will find it and the owner after a while and tax it. I've seen them work and heard the "war stories".