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I'm pretty sure the DEP, LURC, and local town officials are using arial photos, not satellite photos. James Sewall Co in Old Town has a thriving business providing arial photos to folks that do land management. It's also not illegal for anyone to fly over property and take pictures, and those pictures can be used for law enforcement which is what LURC or the DEP would be doing. A photo showing no improvements compared to a photo showing an improvement that records show was not legally permitted would be grounds for an investigation I'm pretty sure...and the law wins that one.
Granted, the aerial photography would not constitute an illegal act, it is the physical entry to the property, lacking a valid warrant, that is the sticky point.
I suspect that the process of applying for and receiving a 'permit' would construe [the granting of] permission for entry and 'inspection', and the waiving of one's constitutional rights in this regard, but one who has not done so still retains all of his/her rights.
I will concede that if such a matter were taken to court, the outcome might be unpredictable. I can also conceive of one strategy whereby the 'taxing authorities' might avoid such a battle and 'force' the landowner to permit entry.
I have no illusions as to success in using this particular argument, much would depend on the perseverance of the 'authorities' and the landowner (and his penchant for "tilting at windmills").
The discussion is purely academic (at this point) and is not intended to be an argument in favor of actually embarking on such a course of action. The reality of the situation is that the landowner*** would likely need to spend a considerable amount of time and money to engage in this type of battle, and the cost could conceivably exceed the cost of simply knuckling under and just paying the taxes.
***(No one *really* *owns* land, it is just 'rented' from the State. Fail to pay the 'rent' (taxes) and you are served with an eviction notice.)
As always, interesting debate on land use issues here on the Maine forums. I think what I've learned here is that regardless of whether you build in a town or in UT, the regulations, taxes, and fees pale in comparison to New Jersey. At one time it was the dream of my wife and I to purchase a home with land (20+ acres) in the far northwest corner of the state to live on, grow a large garden, hunt in our own backyard, have space to shoot, ride ATVs, etc...without bothering any neighbors. What we've found is that it's next to impossible for a middle class family to do such a thing simply because of taxes and the cost of the home/land in the first place. It just makes no sense to work towards paying a mortgage on a $600-800K property with taxes ranging anywhere from $8-10K (and that's if you can get a lower rate via farm assessment) for a home that's still going to be located with the Bos-Wash Megalopolis and subject to the traffic, overcrowding, light pollution, etc...associated with it. It's a shame because there are so many beautiful areas of New Jersey-there are just too darn many people. My wife and I are very much looking forward to our own getaway for long summer weekends and fall hunting. Hopefully it will become our home one day, but that's a long way off.
Interesting discussion... I'm trying to understand something about these "camps" (I guess when realtors are selling something as "camp" it should be read as "structure was never permitted as permanent dwelling" and has no septic permit?).
If you buy one and live there permanently, will they tell you to move out or get a) structure and b) septic permitted if they find out (in UT or otherwise)?
And do they care to find out if you live and not just camp there (in rural locations, I'm not talking about in-town, at least in "town" with under 2,000 population, 5-10 acres parcel)?
I'd guess that to get such existing structure permitted would be very expensive or impossible, as no telling to which "codes" it would comply to and no design/drawings being available (plus it would be impossible to prove when structure was built).
Also wonder if it's allowed to permanently live in "temporary" structures in Maine in UTs? (say, in a small log cabin on skids) if one gets a fully permitted septic.
Bascially, trying to understand what one may face if they purchase something sold as "camp" and just live there or get permitted septic and bring your 300sf towable cabin. The reason I'm interested in living in a camp property is because these have more unspoiled nature on the lot and I can't afford (or need) to build traditional huge house. I was thinking of keeping several goats and some birds, which would need own pens too, and these can be on wheels as well.
Zoneing in Maine cab be brutally oppressive or nonexistent. You need to be sure before you buy. My closest neighbor down the road is living in a travel trailer with no running water. He has a septic tank, but the line is frozen so it's porta-potty time and the contents are dumped in the cleanout cover. He will begin construction on his permanent home in the spring. (It is NOT spring yet.) There is no law preventing him from living in his travel trailer year round here. There are towns that will jail you for the same arrangement. There is a guy down in Camden spending the winter in a tent on Borestone Mountain. You can do that too in Maine - except for some towns that would jail you for doing that.
As to camps, I know of a property the owner describes as a "camp". It is worth about $3/4 mil. I own what is called a "camp camp". It is post and beam, unpainted and uninsulated. It is in old growth forest and is 22 feet from the lake. That was legal when it was built and it is "grandfathered". You can't do that any more. You can't build a boathouse in the lake any more either, but the existing boat houses do not hurt the lake and never did hurt the lake.
Some day we will get our freedom back and resume building boathouses in the lake if we want to. The breeze blows through the bedroom on the second floor over the water and you can jump out the window into the lake in the morning if you want to. You can fish out the window too and in the winter you can shoot a coyote out the window.
I spoke with someone yesterday who has a nesting pair of eagles on his property near his camp. He has a vegetable garden. He doesn't worry about rabbits eating his veggies because as soon as a rabbit comes into his garden it becomes lunch for the eagle chicks. It's a symbiotic relationship between the camp owner and the eagles.
Every spring when I open up camp I feed the mice I trap to a red tailed hawk. I put a fresh mouse on the wood pile every morning and the hawk is waiting for it. When I come out the hawk screeches at me. It may all sound primitive, but DSL at my camp is faster than it is here at the house.A T1 line just happens to go by my camp a quarter mile away,
Zoneing in Maine cab be brutally oppressive or nonexistent. You need to be sure before you buy. My closest neighbor down the road is living in a travel trailer with no running water. He has a septic tank, but the line is frozen so it's porta-potty time and the contents are dumped in the cleanout cover. He will begin construction on his permanent home in the spring. (It is NOT spring yet.) There is no law preventing him from living in his travel trailer year round here. There are towns that will jail you for the same arrangement. There is a guy down in Camden spending the winter in a tent on Borestone Mountain. You can do that too in Maine - except for some towns that would jail you for doing that.
They will....jail you for living in a trailer or tent on own land?? I assume this is not in unorganized territories?! LURC doesn't try to jail people for that too, by chance? I'd most certainly check with the town, but my understanding is in unorganized territories there's no governming body to check with. (I could say a few things about constitutionality of jailing someone over living in a trailer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man
As to camps, I know of a property the owner describes as a "camp". It is worth about $3/4 mil. I own what is called a "camp camp". It is post and beam, unpainted and uninsulated. It is in old growth forest and is 22 feet from the lake. That was legal when it was built and it is "grandfathered".
I was thinking of buying a grandfathered camp that was built like full-time dwelling, which would probably lack permitted septic, and living year-round, getting the septic permitted, if they ask me to. But main concern is the building itself, would LURC say "we think you live here permanently and you should either just camp here or bring house to current code" Since unpermitted buildings don't have a proof of when they were built, it's hard to establish that something was grandfathered in... Your lake camp sounds great. I was thinking of something on the mountain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man
I spoke with someone yesterday who has a nesting pair of eagles on his property near his camp. He has a vegetable garden. He doesn't worry about rabbits eating his veggies because as soon as a rabbit comes into his garden it becomes lunch for the eagle chicks. It's a symbiotic relationship between the camp owner and the eagles.
Every spring when I open up camp I feed the mice I trap to a red tailed hawk. I put a fresh mouse on the wood pile every morning and the hawk is waiting for it. When I come out the hawk screeches at me. It may all sound primitive, but DSL at my camp is faster than it is here at the house.A T1 line just happens to go by my camp a quarter mile away,
Seen one of these circle down over my favorite cat that lives on a local farm...glad it run for cover really fast.
They won't show up at your camp some morning and haul you off in handcuffs. First they threaten you. Then they start fining you on an accelerating scale. When you don't pay the fines they haul you off to jail.
The next town over will welcome you. Check with somebody who knows before picking a town. There are many towns in Maine with no zoning.
As always, interesting debate on land use issues here on the Maine forums. I think what I've learned here is that regardless of whether you build in a town or in UT, the regulations, taxes, and fees pale in comparison to New Jersey. At one time it was the dream of my wife and I to purchase a home with land (20+ acres) in the far northwest corner of the state to live on, grow a large garden, hunt in our own backyard, have space to shoot, ride ATVs, etc...without bothering any neighbors. What we've found is that it's next to impossible for a middle class family to do such a thing simply because of taxes and the cost of the home/land in the first place. It just makes no sense to work towards paying a mortgage on a $600-800K property with taxes ranging anywhere from $8-10K (and that's if you can get a lower rate via farm assessment) for a home that's still going to be located with the Bos-Wash Megalopolis and subject to the traffic, overcrowding, light pollution, etc...associated with it. It's a shame because there are so many beautiful areas of New Jersey-there are just too darn many people. My wife and I are very much looking forward to our own getaway for long summer weekends and fall hunting. Hopefully it will become our home one day, but that's a long way off.
You're 100% correct, it's got to do with population densities and an attempt to at least stabilize water quality, some of which is already beyond recovery. Building "boathouses" on the shore of a pond or lake takes away the forest basal area - trees - whose root systems help contain erosion and filter runoff. The whole purpose of timber cutting rules around water bodies is maintenance of water quality. But there are those that feel their "freedoms" are impinged if they can't run a straightpipe from their toilet into the lake. Their "freedoms" are impinged if they can't build a 5,000 square foot structure half on pilings hanging out over the pond. Their "freedoms" are impinged if they can't put a cesspool 20' from their neighbors well. Their "freedoms" are impinged if they can't build a coal-burning factory next to your retirement home. Their "freedoms" are impinged if they can't start an open pit mine and use whatever chemical processes are most financially expedient in providing them profits without the ridiculous expense of having to monitor ground water quality. Their "freedoms" are impinged if a bunch of dirty hippies in Garland, Dexter, Dover-Foxcroft, Sangerville - you name it - voted against a private, 500' to 2000' wide, fenced, zero-access, high speed private highway that would be visible from space, entailing over 13,000 acres, crossing numerous rivers and streams, slicing Maine in half, causing huge negative economic impact to the small towns along the route , with offramps only for the convenience of trucking onto I-95 and other major routes (since their own trucking convenience and fueling areas would be constructed within the corridor to provide that extra profit margin), running from Canada to Canada, and to be sold to the highest bidder at the first opportunity following construction. That kind of "freedom."
I think if a lot of states and the federal government were trying to prevent the urbanization of natural locations, they would give prospective home buyers a credit or tax-benefit for homes built prior to 1970 to repair and make usable so more homes would not have to be built, but without intent to "re-sell" for at least 8 years and limited to one residential property per single person or married couple (anti-house flipping a$$hole prevention).
I'll take a slight tax hit to prevent the horrible urban sprawl of California and Massachusetts:
They won't show up at your camp some morning and haul you off in handcuffs. First they threaten you. Then they start fining you on an accelerating scale. When you don't pay the fines they haul you off to jail.
The next town over will welcome you. Check with somebody who knows before picking a town. There are many towns in Maine with no zoning.
I see, thanks. I guess one has to call LUPC for parcels in unorganized territories, as they have no governing body. I found pretty good online parcel map for these and it lists zoning info and found the list of LUPC zone descriptions. Perhaps also good to find out from property seller, though they might not be honest...some sales adviertise camps for year round living. In unorganized territory, is it LUPC only or is there anything else that sets these rules?
Last edited by opossum1; 03-30-2015 at 09:27 AM..
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