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I grew up in Houston (4th largest city behind LA). I never in my entire 40+ years living in Houston observed homeless encampments. Why? Because Houston had ordinances prohibiting setting up living quarters on public land. The Houston police enforce those ordinances. Houston has a very clean downtown and yes Houston also has a huge homeless population that are not enabled to destroy parts of the city as you see occurring in LA.
Recently I was in Houston for 4 months and while running around downtown I was stunned when I came upon large homeless encampments under the freeway underpasses. I had never seen this in Houston before.
What happened was: In 2017 The American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, on behalf of four homeless people, sued the city, contending the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime. This resulted in a an explosion of homeless camps in Houston because the Federal Judge overseeing the case put a hold on the police enforcement of these camps.
Turner (Houston's Mayor) has said the restraining order caused conditions at the sites to worsen. One of them includes more than 100 tents under a freeway near downtown. It and another site have been the scene of several homicides and other crimes
Residents of nearby neighborhoods also have complained about the conditions that public health officials have agreed are becoming a hazard because of large amounts of feces and urine on the ground.
The ACLU and homeless lawsuit claimed: the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime.
The Jude disagreed with the argument about enforcement making homelessness a crime, saying the ordinance “prohibits obstructions that hinder the city from preserving public property for its intended purpose.”
Houston City officials argue the tent cities and encampments, primarily under freeway overpasses, are hazardous to public health and safety.
Mayor Sylvester Turner said he was grateful the judge “has, for now, essentially endorsed the city’s effort to strike a balance between preserving personal freedoms of every Houstonian and eliminating threats to public health that have developed at and near encampments on public property in the center of the city.”
Isn't that interesting? Houston has a huge homeless population and up until this silly lawsuit they did not set up living quarters on public land due to Houston police enforcing the city ordinances. Additionally Don't Mess with Texas is taken very seriously in Texas.
However as soon as the police were forced to stop enforcing the ordinances the explosion of homeless camps proceeded.
Thankfully the Judge ruled the way he did AND the Houston police enforce city or Houston would look like LA's current nightmare.
If LA would enforce the no living on public land laws, LA 's public property would return to being preserved for its intended purpose.
The hazardous unsanitary conditions would cease to be a hazard to the general pubic.
Interesting . The ACLU does a lot of bad things like that .
Houston and Texas have a lot more common sense than L.A or California.
I think things will have to get even worse until more people wake up and realize there needs to be a real regime change . The liberal policies have been failing .
Interesting . The ACLU does a lot of bad things like that .
Houston and Texas have a lot more common sense than L.A or California.
I think things will have to get even worse until more people wake up and realize there needs to be a real regime change . The liberal policies have been failing .
The Houston story was truly a real time experiment demonstrating how the homeless will behave when they know that there's no one to enforce the laws or ordinances.
I think here it's more of a mentality of socialism and entitlement at the tax payers expense. I don't see it as liberal...I see it as socialism. Like I said the Democrats in Houston don't act or think the way the Democrats in CA do. I was stunned when I moved here...I did not recognize what is deemed a Democrat in CA. Democrats in Houston don't believe in socialism.
The Mayor of Houston is a Democrat and was grateful that his officers are now able to enforce the city ordinance. See the difference?
Another interesting observation. If you look at the Texas thread and compare it to the CA thread....which state has more complaints about their city or State? Goes to show that CA is a poorly run state compared to Texas. You are correct in that CA/LA has a lot it could learn from TX/Houston.
Homeless encampments increasingly affecting California train traffic. The explosion of homeless encampments alongside California railroad tracks has contributed to chronic delays for the state's rocketing passenger ridership, an outbreak of accidental fires and deadly collisions, frustrating executives who call the vagrants' presence "unacceptable."
Spitzer blames the problem on two issues: legislation signed by Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown over the past several years that has eroded the penalties for drug use, possession and petty crimes to where police often don’t bother making arrests; and the change in a law so that treatment is no longer forced for drug abuse or mental health issues.
This week he wrote a letter to Brown, urging him to declare a state of emergency over the homeless issue and reverse previous forced-treatment laws.
“When I was a prosecutor, the law behind possession was a felony,” said Spitzer, a former deputy district attorney. “We would use the hammer under the law of a felony. We would force someone into treatment and upon successful treatment, the felony would be dismissed. Now look what we have as a result of ridiculous short-sighted liberalization of drug use.”
Let's review.
So this does agree with the first link. They went from the State Prison to the County Jail.
LOL a felony keeps you in a prison but a misdemeanor lands you in jail, so again this agrees with the first link. Do you know the difference between a State Prison and a County Jail?
Until you find those numbers don't bother speculating.
Sure it does. Quote Mining is a lame tacit to try and prove or disprove your points.
The author clearly states in the opening first 2 paragraphs.
In 2011 no inmates were transferred from State Prison to County jail, it was prospective and applied only to inmates sentenced after implementation.
I know the difference, and I also know that if it were not for prop 47 you would have ended up with large numbers of potentially dangerous inmates released due to the federal cap on California prison population. There is little purpose served by sending people to prison for writing a bad check or the personal possession of a small amount of dope, there is plenty of evidence to support the fact that low level, non-violent offenders are better managed through alternative sanctions. 39% of Prisoners Should Not Be in Prison | Time
There are problems with this statement: "This caused significant overcrowding in the local jails, which were not equipped to handle the rehabilitation, medical, and mental health care of long-term inmates, forcing an early release of approximately 162,000 prisoners back into the community in 2013, 96,000 in 2014 after the passage of Proposition 47, and 72,000 in 2016 after the passage of Proposition 57"
Again prop 57 has nothing to do with those numbers and I can't find anything to even support it on his 'source'. And felons serving their prison sentence in a county jail are not released early, the time they serve is set by state law, however the addition of inmates serving time in county jails did result in early releases of other inmates in the jail. Early jail releases have surged since California's prison realignment But that 162,000 number is strange...before the implementation of AB109, prop 47 or prop 57 there were almost 10,000 inmates a month released from California prisons and none of those inmates were subject to any sort of early release: The truth about 'early release' - latimes
But early releases are nothing new for LA county jail, or at least the past 15 years inmates sentenced to jail terms are released after serving 5-10% of their sentence. Prop. 47 brings a shift to longer time spent behind bars
Matadora, you seem to go back and forth on your answers. For instance, I asked you this:
rodentraiser: And what, exactly, kind of training are you going to provide for them (the homeless) so they can afford to live in an apartment?
Matadora:
Life Skills Training
Matadora:
From the link I posted: Helping people experiencing homelessness acquire life skills can help them move on from homelessness and resettle into the community. Life skills training is different from support, help or assistance in that the aim is to promote self-sufficiency.
Life skills can be thought of in terms of three broad categories:
Core or basic skills (e.g. numeracy, literacy and information technology)
Independent living skills (e.g. managing a household, budgeting, appointment keeping and contacting services, dealing with bills and correspondence); and,
Social skills (e.g. interpersonal skills, avoiding or dealing with neighbor disputes, developing self-confidence and social networks).
It's clear that you don't believe homelessness involves people who have lost all or most of those life skills which are necessary for achieving self-sufficiency.
You expect a person who has lost most of those skills to be given an education that will help them make 100K per year? If the majority of the US can’t earn a college education why do you think a homeless person who lacks discipline and basic life skills should be given a free education in hopes that they will pursue a useful major and one that enables them to earn 100K per year? There are millions of people in the US that will never make 100K a year who are not homeless and who are not demanding that they be handed a 100K a year job without doing anything on their part to earn the skills necessary.
And later I asked: rodentraiser:
Do you see anything there (on the Life Skills webpage) that's going to help the homeless make $100,000 or more in LA so they can afford to get off the street and into an apartment?
And you answered:
Matadora:
Do you even understand what it takes for a person to make $100,000 a year? Most people who have never been homeless don’t even make that a year. You clearly are out of touch with reality. Life Skills Training is not the same as job training or earning a college degree/technical skill that can set you up nicely for life. Get a clue!
Which still doesn't answer my question about how you are going to get people off the street and into an apartment or some other suitable housing. People still have to eat and have shelter while they're learning.
Then you said this: Matadora:
What makes you think all 53,000 are committing crimes that warrant jail time?
And then you posted this:
Matadora:
What happened was: In 2017 The American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, on behalf of four homeless people, sued the city, contending the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime.
If you knew this, then you know that all 53,000 homeless people are committing a crime just by being homeless.
And finally, when I said you'd never answered my question about what you'd do if you were homeless, you said:
Matadora:
I don’t recall you asking that.
So I'll post it for you again:
rodentraiser:
So tell me, if you had 12 hours to vacate where you currently live, no money, and no friends or relatives to help you, where would you go? Where would you live? How do you get around if you have no transportation? What would you carry? How would you carry it? Where will you wash up? Where will you go to the bathroom? Where would you get water? What would you eat? How do you pay for anything? Do you have a plan to protect yourself if needed? How hungry will you have to get to beg or steal?
Matadora, you seem to go back and forth on your answers. For instance, I asked you this:
rodentraiser: And what, exactly, kind of training are you going to provide for them (the homeless) so they can afford to live in an apartment?
Matadora:
Life Skills Training
Matadora:
From the link I posted: Helping people experiencing homelessness acquire life skills can help them move on from homelessness and resettle into the community. Life skills training is different from support, help or assistance in that the aim is to promote self-sufficiency.
Life skills can be thought of in terms of three broad categories:
Core or basic skills (e.g. numeracy, literacy and information technology)
Independent living skills (e.g. managing a household, budgeting, appointment keeping and contacting services, dealing with bills and correspondence); and,
Social skills (e.g. interpersonal skills, avoiding or dealing with neighbor disputes, developing self-confidence and social networks).
It's clear that you don't believe homelessness involves people who have lost all or most of those life skills which are necessary for achieving self-sufficiency.
You expect a person who has lost most of those skills to be given an education that will help them make 100K per year? If the majority of the US can’t earn a college education why do you think a homeless person who lacks discipline and basic life skills should be given a free education in hopes that they will pursue a useful major and one that enables them to earn 100K per year? There are millions of people in the US that will never make 100K a year who are not homeless and who are not demanding that they be handed a 100K a year job without doing anything on their part to earn the skills necessary.
And later I asked: rodentraiser:
Do you see anything there (on the Life Skills webpage) that's going to help the homeless make $100,000 or more in LA so they can afford to get off the street and into an apartment?
And you answered:
Matadora:
Do you even understand what it takes for a person to make $100,000 a year? Most people who have never been homeless don’t even make that a year. You clearly are out of touch with reality. Life Skills Training is not the same as job training or earning a college degree/technical skill that can set you up nicely for life. Get a clue!
I see no conflict in what I posted. What traits do you think it takes to be the type of person who wants to earn 100K per year? A person who has Life Skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser
Which still doesn't answer my question about how you are going to get people off the street and into an apartment or some other suitable housing. People still have to eat and have shelter while they're learning.
It's not my responsibility to get anyone off the street. There are plenty of programs here in CA that focuses on doing that. It's up to the homeless person to utilize those resources. If they can't due to being mentally ill then they need to be institutionalized. I have said this for the umpteenth time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser
Then you said this: Matadora:
What makes you think all 53,000 are committing crimes that warrant jail time?
And then you posted this:
Matadora:
What happened was: In 2017 The American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, on behalf of four homeless people, sued the city, contending the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime.
If you knew this, then you know that all 53,000 homeless people are committing a crime just by being homeless.
If I knew what? I don't think you are following my posts correctly.
You are taking posts completely out of context and Quote Mining. The situation in Houston has nothing to do with the situation in CA. The comment about the 53,000 was in response to you making this claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser
There are 53,000 homeless in LA. There are not enough jail cells to provide for 53,000 homeless people. The cost of providing a decent police force to the citizens of LA is already difficult enough, and now you want the police to provide shelter and food for 53,000 people
The lawsuit in Houston has nothing to do with my response to your statement about 53,000 jail cells. The ALCU are the ones trying to make us think that "The ACLU and homeless lawsuit claimed: the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime."
I don't think being homeless is a crime. I think breaking laws by setting up living quarters on public property is a crime. In addition to trashing public property, excreting on public property, and shooting up drugs, leaving behind used needs and stealing from others to support their lifestyle.
Please learn to follow along correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser
And finally, when I said you'd never answered my question about what you'd do if you were homeless, you said:
[i]Matadora:
I don’t recall you asking that.
So I'll post it for you again:rodentraiser:
So tell me, if you had 12 hours to vacate where you currently live, no money, and no friends or relatives to help you, where would you go? Where would you live? How do you get around if you have no transportation? What would you carry? How would you carry it? Where will you wash up? Where will you go to the bathroom? Where would you get water? What would you eat? How do you pay for anything? Do you have a plan to protect yourself if needed? How hungry will you have to get to beg or steal?
And I will answer it a second time for you.
If I found myself suddenly homeless I would turn to my lifelong friends for help. However with 3 solid degrees under my belt, my savings and my outstanding life skills, I will never find myself homeless. I created the life I wanted and becoming homeless is not in the plan.
By refusing to consider education for everyone regardless of financial station, you are accepting the loss of living in a society of people who are all contributing to the tax base.
Quote:
Accepting full responsibility for your life and every thing that happens to you is not wrong nor is it putting yourself up high. In fact it's very humbling but since that concept goes right over your head you will never fully understand it.
I'm not talking about controlling life. I'm talking about taking full accountability for everything that happens to you in this lifetime. We are in control of our own personal lives. We are fully responsible for the life we choose to live. If you aren't then I'd hate to see what kind of life you live and how many folks you point the finger at and blame for your failures.
Then you need to say "accountability". There is a huge, huge difference between accountability and control. You said this:
"We are responsible for the makes or breaks we encounter in this life. I am a firm believer in that. I also believe that we are 100% responsible for ourselves as adults and everything that happens to us."
it sure sounds like you think any person can control whatever happens to him in his lifetime when you say things like that.
But as long as we're talking about it, what kind of accountability should a person take when his house burns down, his job is sent overseas, his landlord evicts him to sell his apartment building, or when his or her spouse walks out, leaving the other to now work and raise their children alone?
Quote:
There are plenty of homeless who have no trouble finding shelter or food. There are plenty of services out there for the homeless.
Then why are there still homeless people on the streets?
Wait - let's come back to this in a minute.
Quote:
Of course you do since you don't understand what fair market wage is about.
From what I've been told, in a fair market, supply and demand rule. In other words, if employers need to hire more people because they can't find anyone to work for them, they will raise their wages. Apparently, that's either not happening or it's not true - or both:
Maybe the market isn't as fair as everyone would like to think.
Quote:
I'm not complaining about anything. I'm discussing the unacceptable behaviors that we are seeing here in CA that are ruining our cities and putting the public at risk. I gave plenty of suggestions. Go back and read them.
I think we've been through this many times before. You know and I know that not all homeless people are like this. But the ones who do cause the trouble are the ones we see all the time. Those are also the ones who are not allowed in shelters or are given services because they continue to drink and use drugs, have mental problems, or may be ex-cons or child molesters. So services for the homeless in this class are useless for them. What do you do with them? Even people who want to help the homeless don't want to help them. And they're the ones that are in your face and in your view.
The next question then becomes, what do you do with the other homeless people? The ones who are not always visible on the streets, but sleep in cars and campers and have full time jobs, and who may be going to college at the same time? These are the ones who work as receptionists, teachers, restaurant managers, cashiers, cooks, and even with their jobs, they can't find a place to live that they can afford. Or the ones that may be disabled, or elderly and can't work a job. What services are going to help them get off the street?
Please don't tell me there are services for these people. Going back to above, if there were enough services to get these people housed, why are they still on the streets, working and sleeping in their vehicles? Do you seriously think if these people could afford an apartment or a place to live, they wouldn't already be in it?
If I knew what? I don't think you are following my posts correctly.
You are taking posts completely out of context and Quote Mining. The situation in Houston has nothing to do with the situation in CA. The comment about the 53,000 was in response to you making this claim.
The lawsuit in Houston has nothing to do with my response to your statement about 53,000 jail cells. The ALCU are the ones trying to make us think that "The ACLU and homeless lawsuit claimed: the ordinance violates the constitutional protections of homeless people and makes homelessness a crime."
I don't think being homeless is a crime. I think breaking laws by setting up living quarters on public property is a crime. In addition to trashing public property, excreting on public property, and shooting up drugs, leaving behind used needs and stealing from others to support their lifestyle.
Please learn to follow along correctly.
I'm following along perfectly.
Instead of asking if being homeless in LA is a crime, imagine if it was (since it happened in Houston) and answer the question: if all those 53,000 people are guilty of committing a crime and they're arrested for it, where do you put them? Do you think the city of LA has 53,000 cells and enough money to house and feed 53,000 people? Even for one day?
And nobody is post mining here.
Quote:
And I will answer it a second time for you.
If I found myself suddenly homeless I would turn to my lifelong friends for help. However with 3 solid degrees under my belt, my savings and my outstanding life skills, I will never find myself homeless. I created the life I wanted and becoming homeless is not in the plan.
I see you can't answer the question about what you'd do and where you'd go, maybe because you yourself don't know what services are available and where you can shelter overnight.
"I will never be homeless". Famous last words. And with that, I'm finished debating with you. Anyone who truly believes they can never be homeless is in complete denial. And you call me delusional. Ha!
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