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I really like KC, but having lived in both KC and StL, I would much rather live in StL.
First off StL is FAR from perfect, so I'm not saying that at all, but here are the big differences.
One big one is density. The city/metro is just so much more continuos rather than being all chopped up like kc. Kansas City is more like a bunch of small metros that happen to be near each other, not just geographically but also mentally, StL is more like one continuous big city.
The state line is a huge issue for me obviously. I just hate the state line in KC, absolutely hate it. While StL has a state line, most of the metro is in Missouri and therefore things are much different there. But even Metro East (Illinois) has nothing on the KS side of KC. There is cooperation and respect, at least a lot more than you see in kc. St Charles County is really the only area that compares to JoCo in kc (when it comes to poaching companies, not participating in regional funding, hating on the city etc), but they can only do so much damage economically as they are much further away from the core of the city, are a much smaller portion of the metro population and can't use absurd incentives to lure "new" jobs across a state line.
Which brings up another huge thing I like about StL. While they have all the same sprawl and blight and racial flight problems kc has, everybody within about 70 miles of downtown StL is a proud StLouisan (even if it's a bit fake out in St Charles County). That is just not the case in KC.
StL has more urban city options than KC and they have a lot more to choose from if you like walkable inner suburb living. Brookside is so tiny compared to what you can find in StL.
StL has better city parks. Forest Park is one of the best large urban parks in the nation and it's extremely popular and busy. The Katy Trail is awesome and busy and is connected to busy trails in west county.
StL has better transit, but not by much. MetroLink is great if you live in the city or the Clayton area, but bus service is StL is lacking, especially outside of 270. But transit there is way better than KC.
StL has NHL. Big plus in my book. While KC has MSL, so maybe it evens out (I prefer hockey). But StL has a competitive baseball team that plays in a downtown park, while KC has the better football team and stadium. StL has SLU college sports rather than just playing host to state college games. So I choose StL for sports.
StL has several big urban colleges including SLU, UMSL, Webster, Washington etc. Something KC severely lacks along with the urban college student residents that come with them. While KC has a nearby college town (KU), Columbia is tied to StL economically as about as much as KU is to KC even though MU is further away from StL while StL ALSO has a lot of great urban schools too.
StL has an airport that is dated, but at least you can get a freaking slice of pizza while waiting for a flight and seems to have more direct flights to non hub airports.
Kansas City has the better downtown right now. StL just is pretty far behind KC when it comes to turning downtown into a residential area. So many buildings still need to be put to use there, especially just west of the CBD. But when you look at the entire urban corridor from the river to Central West End all the way to Clayton, StL pulls ahead of KC and when you include areas like Souldard I think StL is a tier above KC. They really need to do more residential in central downtown though.
The Hill. Enough said if you like Italian food.
I think arts are similar. KC might have the edge now with the Kauffman Center, but with FOX theater, MUNI etc, StL is no slouch either.
KC used to have the state's best casinos, StL blew by KC in recent years though building mega casinos in the burbs and they actually have a very nice respectable downtown casino and hotel complex rather than the Isle of Crap KC has and I still think the one at the speedway will be a joke too (that hard rock would have been awesome).
StL has more family attractions and they are better funded through a regional culture tax. The Zoo, Missouri Botanical Gardens, Science Center etc all top world class and free to the public. StL also has the City Museum, Magic House, Grants Farm, a huge national tourist attraction (arch) and much more.
KC barely wins with amusement parks because KC has two good water parks while WoF is comparable to Six Flags.
KC is trying to catch up and is probably pretty even when it comes to basic tourist attractions, but it lacks in attractions that would attract repeat local visitors. (Science Center, Zoo etc).
I think StL has better, larger and more urban oriented festivals. Fair StL being one example of bringing hundreds of thousands of people to a single event. KC seems to lack in this department.
I like the StL suburbs better. I find most of KC's burbs to be very bland and the topography of them to be boring. StL suburbs are more hilly, and green and just nicer. Parts of Lee's Summit and parts of Platte County are the only burbs I really care for in KC. While most of St Charles County is blahh, Downtown St Charles is great. West County blows away JoCo and South County is nice too.
I think shopping is better in StL mostly because they tend to get stores before KC. They will get IKEA before KC next. Galleria > than Oak Park. They have a carbon copy of the great mall that is actually leased up. KC has the plaza and zona rosa and village west so it's pretty close, but again, StL gets the edge for having more to choose from.
Clayton is the second downtown of metro StL. South JoCo is the second downtown of metro kc. (plaza has about the same office space as CWE) StL wins this by a landslide.
Traffic is much better in KC. StL traffic is not terrible, but compared to KC, it's pretty congested, especially on the surface streets.
StL is so much closer to so much more "stuff". Chicago, Cincy, Nashville, Memphis, Indy etc etc. While only a few hours further from the only place I care about driving to west of KC (Denver/Colorado).
While the plaza is nice and KC has some art deco gems, StL is a tier above KC architecturally.
St Louis is home to three times as many fortune 1000 companies.
KC has nascar (not that I care though).
StL is slightly cheaper than KC to live.
And finally, people run around town in Cards gear (a city MLB team) not KU gear (a college team that is not even in the same state as most of the city)
StL has several big urban colleges including SLU, UMSL, Webster, Washington etc. Something KC severely lacks along with the urban college student residents that come with them. While KC has a nearby college town (KU), Columbia is tied to StL economically as about as much as KU is to KC even though MU is further away from StL while StL ALSO has a lot of great urban schools too.
Yep, forgot to mention this... this is a big lacking area for KC, IMO...it's not that we don't have urban colleges, but we certainly don't have a diffused urban college culture that, to me, plays an important role in a city's overall flavor. When I lived in Chicago, the presence of area schools like Loyola, DePaul, and Northwestern were noteworthy and contributed to the atmosphere of different neighborhoods in which I lived. By contrast, I lived right on the outskirts of a college campus when I first lived in KC, but you certainly never would have known it. The feel is just not there. Now, given different people's opinions on/tolerance of college culture, this could be a plus or minus, but to me, if you have a university, it should FEEL like you have a university.
Full disclosure...as a student, myself, I had absolutely NO interest whatsoever in the large urban university experience (very intentionally chose a tiny rural/small town liberal arts college for undergrad)...but if I HAD wanted to attend an urban university, and my choices had been KC or STL, the choice would definitely have been STL. KC's higher ed game just isn't there...whether it's due to the proximity to Lawrence or what, I couldn't say, but it's not there.
I do think that the arts edge absolutely goes to KC, though.
And I think Wash Ave kicks P&Ls tooshie. And having downtown baseball makes my heart happy.
I think P&L is much better for the Bridge and Tunnel (Suburban Tourist) crowd then Wash Ave or even the Landing, overall I think our Entertainment/Bar Districts in KC are a tad better
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo
And finally, people run around town in Cards gear (a city MLB team) not KU gear (a college team that is not even in the same state as most of the city)
I noticed Cards gear all over this weekend but I did see a KU hat at one of the bars outside Busch before the game.
FTR, even thought they never like to release "official" figures, there's regularly more than a million visitors over the long weekend of Fair St. Louis. They can get numbers like that because unlike Riverfest, they don't charge to get in. St. Louis has great corporate sponsors who help to make events like this possible.
Depending on the weather, Mardi Gras and St. Patrick's Day regularly get 500,000 and up. Soulard has taken back up Oktoberfest, which I heard was a real good time this year -- hope I can make it out there next year!
I think P&L is much better for the Bridge and Tunnel (Suburban Tourist) crowd then Wash Ave or even the Landing, overall I think our Entertainment/Bar Districts in KC are a tad better
Can I ask why you think it's better for the B&Ters? Wash Ave is more walkable, and all the other downtown activities like Live on the Levee and Blues Fest and Cardinals game seem to drive a lot of traffic to the area. Is it parking? Chains? I could probably give you those.
Isn't it nice how St. Louisans don't have to subsidize the area with bond payments though?
Outside of P&L and Westport what entertainment districts does KC have? STL has Wash Ave, Laclede's Landing, Soulard, the Grove, the Central West End and I'd even throw in Morganford.
The only thing I believe St. Louis has over KC is that downtown is extremely walkable. You can walk from the Landing, to Busch Stadium, to Union Station, the Arch, to the Saavis Center (I still call it that) and everywhere without issue and all the good entertainment stuff is really close together. I think if we can build around P&L, we can have the same thing here in KC.
Although I love the history, the buildings, and the cobblestone streets of the Landing, I'm just about as likely to patronize the night life establishments there as I am the ones on Wash Ave or P&L or Martini Corner or Waldo or Westport, i.e. sparingly to not at all.
But that's just me and my overall going out habits, which are more likely to run to neighborhood holes in the wall within walking distance of home than crowded "ntz-ntz-ntz-ntz" destination-style clubs. I'm definitely NOT the patron by which all night-spot appealingness would be measured, by any stretch.
Outside of P&L and Westport what entertainment districts does KC have? STL has Wash Ave, Laclede's Landing, Soulard, the Grove, the Central West End and I'd even throw in Morganford.
What about the Loop?
Also, I would add the Plaza as a major entertainment district for KC (even though it has little nightlife).
Can I ask why you think it's better for the B&Ters? Wash Ave is more walkable, and all the other downtown activities like Live on the Levee and Blues Fest and Cardinals game seem to drive a lot of traffic to the area. Is it parking? Chains? I could probably give you those.
Isn't it nice how St. Louisans don't have to subsidize the area with bond payments though?
Outside of P&L and Westport what entertainment districts does KC have? STL has Wash Ave, Laclede's Landing, Soulard, the Grove, the Central West End and I'd even throw in Morganford.
This was a couple years ago, but I walked Wash Ave from City Museum to a Hotel by Arch and really just noticed a lot of clubs more then anything, P&L seems to have more diversity in terms of bar options. The walk back from Wash Ave to the hotel is kind of sketchy, a couple guys are just standing there waiting to prey on people who take a wrong turn. Even the landing seemed to be more clubby/dance type stuff on the weekends.
Waldo is turning into a great destination for bars, there are probably a good 10 bars in that area now. Martini Corner is always solid and the new Alex Pope restaurant going into that area will give it some more food cred.
The Grove seems to be a few years off because there are still a lot of empty buildings and the location around lots of industrial areas is interesting, kind of reminds me of a crossroads kind of area.
CWE is more comparable to the Plaza and the plaza is a tad better imo.
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