Palencia / Nocatee Builder Negotiations (sales, 2015, buying a house)
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Looking at Palencia and Nocatee. Was wondering if anyone was able to negotiate with the builder directly and if so what they were able to negotiate. Thanks in advance for your help!!!
Yes, we are in the process of building a home in Palencia, dealt directly with Lennar. House will be ready next month, the experience thus far has been positive.
Yes, we are in the process of building a home in Palencia, dealt directly with Lennar. House will be ready next month, the experience thus far has been positive.
Thanks, any tips or suggestions on what you were able to negotiate with them?
Lennar is very rigid in their pricing and options but in some ways it makes it easier for the buyer. Lot choices and timing of the build were about all we could negotiate. Their sales team is very good and do not pressure you for a quick sale. They will make suggestions as to how to lower your costs by using outside contractor for some of the work, fences, expanded lanai etc. The communications and information has been excellent. I get pictures a couple times a week with a status on how the build is going. They are about a month or so ahead of the build schedule I was given. So far, so good
Thanks, any tips or suggestions on what you were able to negotiate with them?
Whatever you decide to negotiate with them, what you want to include in your negotiations is having them make a MAJOR upgrade to their Weatherization System!
Attached is a recent picture of what Lennar is doing, and has the following problems:
1. They are using Green Guard "Value" Wrap, which is a woven, perforated product. It has holes punched in it to give it breathability, and the perforated products leak. They used to use Fortifiber WeatherSmart, which was a very good product, and I have no idea why they switched to such an inferior product. If you want to get an idea of how bad this stuff is, find a scrap piece of the Value Wrap on a jobsite, put it over a glass jar with water in it, put a rubber band around the top edge to seal it up, and then turn the jar upside down. That's what will happen in your walls as the humidity from the heat of the day constantly condenses on the housewrap.
2. Look at the little triangle "patch" they put above the entrance leading to the front door. The tape that they used will eventually fail from thermal degradation, and that roof line will be able to channel water directly into where that patch is.
3. Notice the overlap on the housewrap in the gable above the garage. They used two pieces, and they only overlap approximately 4-5". Code requirement is 6" and most manufacturers require 12" overlaps at all vertical seams.
4. Note the absence of nails in the housewrap? That's because the only used staples to install it, not the plastic cap nails that are required by every manufacturer of housewrap.
5. Note on the front windows the use of "Waterblock" flashing, not the Green Guard flashing. This is an inferior asphalt flashing and does not go with the Green Guard system. This eliminates any chance of having a warranty on your home, if the Value Wrap even offers a Warranty. (Ask for it!) The newer flashings are all either butyl or hybrid acrylic and are far superior in quality to the asphalt.
6. The window flaps above those two windows are not done correctly. The 45 degree cut should come out 4" past each side of the window. If the tape fails at this cut, and the tape will fail eventually, the water could get directed into the top of the windows.
7. Last but not least, due to all the above items, improper install, no plastic cap nails, improper overlaps, mixed products.......this house will have NO WARRANTY on the wall system at all.
Most housewrap manufacturers offer 10 or 15 years warranties on their systems, and Typar just recently started offering a Limited Lifetime warranty on their system.
If you don't want the chance for moisture intrusion problems a few years down the road, or worse, mold that could lead to health concerns, do NOT buy a home like this where so little care is put into the Weatherization system that is hidden inside your walls. And yes, this house is here in NE Florida.
Tell them you want an upgraded system, and demand that they use a Certified or Authorized installation company for that system. Here is a list of common systems that should be used in a hot, humid climate such as Florida:
A. Dow Weathermate Plus (NOT Dow Weathermate Basic, which is also perforated and woven)
B. Typar
C. Typar DW
D. Benjamin Obdyke HydroGap
E. Fortifiber WeatherSmart
F. FlatWrap HP
G. Barricade Plus (same as the Dow, use the Plus, not the regular)
H. I'm going to include DuPont Tyvek in this list with a caveat....Tyvek is a high perm product which should not be used in a hot, humid climate, however, it would be a superior system than the Green Guard Value Wrap they are currently using because it is non-woven, non-perforated.
I. HardieWrap
The problem is the Weatherization System gets hidden inside the walls, but it's probably THE most important part of the house that works in conjunction with your HVAC system to prevent moisture intrusion. There is no way I would buy a house with such a poorly installed, ineffective system as the one in the picture. Sorry if I seem overly emphatic about all this, but with all the technology and building science we have available today, the fact that ANY builder would allow an installation like this on their home (and feel ok selling it to an unsuspecting customer!) really is a setback to the building industry here in NE Florida as a whole.
Having dealt with the builders both without and with a realtor, i'd recommend going with a realtor. They know the builders and the politics and understand where they can push for upgrades or other incentives beyond what an unrepresented buyer knows.
Always have your own realtor when building a new home. Hopefully your build goes so well you'll feel it wasn't necessary. However I used to think it wasn't necessary but we closed on our home this time in 2015 and during the build there were issues where the builder started up-charging us for items like tile that they said were "upgrades" when during our design appointment they said level 1 which was in the package etc. It was our realtor that convinced the builder that if they put level 1 on tile and then realize later its a level 2 they can't just stick us with the bill or we'd walk away from the build. For some reason coming direct from us it didn't have an impact, but our realtor was able to get the builder to eat the cost of their mistake and keep the build moving. They also helped us find a good local inspector which was critical as we were building from 1500 miles away and the build quality is very random as the subs seem to vary greatly in quality. The inspector helped keep the builder honest on quality issues they were ready to just cover up or that they missed. The realtor and inspector were an important part of our team since we could not be on site daily (as we should have been.) Anyone building should have both a realtor (not the builders realtor) and also at least two home inspections.
Excellen info, thank you! Off topic, but do you have Any advice for what to look for/ask for if buying a house that is not new? My family is looking at JCP which seems pretty much built out by now, but I'd like to avoid a house that has a bad weather wrap system for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks in advance!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred
Whatever you decide to negotiate with them, what you want to include in your negotiations is having them make a MAJOR upgrade to their Weatherization System!
Attached is a recent picture of what Lennar is doing, and has the following problems:
1. They are using Green Guard "Value" Wrap, which is a woven, perforated product. It has holes punched in it to give it breathability, and the perforated products leak. They used to use Fortifiber WeatherSmart, which was a very good product, and I have no idea why they switched to such an inferior product. If you want to get an idea of how bad this stuff is, find a scrap piece of the Value Wrap on a jobsite, put it over a glass jar with water in it, put a rubber band around the top edge to seal it up, and then turn the jar upside down. That's what will happen in your walls as the humidity from the heat of the day constantly condenses on the housewrap.
2. Look at the little triangle "patch" they put above the entrance leading to the front door. The tape that they used will eventually fail from thermal degradation, and that roof line will be able to channel water directly into where that patch is.
3. Notice the overlap on the housewrap in the gable above the garage. They used two pieces, and they only overlap approximately 4-5". Code requirement is 6" and most manufacturers require 12" overlaps at all vertical seams.
4. Note the absence of nails in the housewrap? That's because the only used staples to install it, not the plastic cap nails that are required by every manufacturer of housewrap.
5. Note on the front windows the use of "Waterblock" flashing, not the Green Guard flashing. This is an inferior asphalt flashing and does not go with the Green Guard system. This eliminates any chance of having a warranty on your home, if the Value Wrap even offers a Warranty. (Ask for it!) The newer flashings are all either butyl or hybrid acrylic and are far superior in quality to the asphalt.
6. The window flaps above those two windows are not done correctly. The 45 degree cut should come out 4" past each side of the window. If the tape fails at this cut, and the tape will fail eventually, the water could get directed into the top of the windows.
7. Last but not least, due to all the above items, improper install, no plastic cap nails, improper overlaps, mixed products.......this house will have NO WARRANTY on the wall system at all.
Most housewrap manufacturers offer 10 or 15 years warranties on their systems, and Typar just recently started offering a Limited Lifetime warranty on their system.
If you don't want the chance for moisture intrusion problems a few years down the road, or worse, mold that could lead to health concerns, do NOT buy a home like this where so little care is put into the Weatherization system that is hidden inside your walls. And yes, this house is here in NE Florida.
Tell them you want an upgraded system, and demand that they use a Certified or Authorized installation company for that system. Here is a list of common systems that should be used in a hot, humid climate such as Florida:
A. Dow Weathermate Plus (NOT Dow Weathermate Basic, which is also perforated and woven)
B. Typar
C. Typar DW
D. Benjamin Obdyke HydroGap
E. Fortifiber WeatherSmart
F. FlatWrap HP
G. Barricade Plus (same as the Dow, use the Plus, not the regular)
H. I'm going to include DuPont Tyvek in this list with a caveat....Tyvek is a high perm product which should not be used in a hot, humid climate, however, it would be a superior system than the Green Guard Value Wrap they are currently using because it is non-woven, non-perforated.
I. HardieWrap
The problem is the Weatherization System gets hidden inside the walls, but it's probably THE most important part of the house that works in conjunction with your HVAC system to prevent moisture intrusion. There is no way I would buy a house with such a poorly installed, ineffective system as the one in the picture. Sorry if I seem overly emphatic about all this, but with all the technology and building science we have available today, the fact that ANY builder would allow an installation like this on their home (and feel ok selling it to an unsuspecting customer!) really is a setback to the building industry here in NE Florida as a whole.
Excellen info, thank you! Off topic, but do you have Any advice for what to look for/ask for if buying a house that is not new? My family is looking at JCP which seems pretty much built out by now, but I'd like to avoid a house that has a bad weather wrap system for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks in advance!
That's a tough one....I know what most of the builders were doing during the early stages of JCP, and some were great, and some were terrible.
What makes it even more difficult is that over the years, builders can change their philosophies and so for example, Builder "A" might have been using an excellent system during a particular time period when they had a management that cared about certain things like moisture intrusion and building integrity, and then over time, that management disappears, and the new people that take over either A) Don't care or B) Are too new to the industry to have the education and experience.
What has happened with Lennar going from a top of line System (Fortifiber WeatherSmart) with a Certified Installation company to a substandard installation of inferior products is a question I cannot answer. I can only speculate that it's to cut costs and boost their profit margins to try and please the shareholders if they are a publicly traded company.
What I can say is that some builders, no matter the employee changes throughout the years, abide by quality standards that are very consistent. Some are consistently bad, and some are consistently great.
Currently some of the very best builders in NE Florida include (but are not limited to) the following names:
1. David Weekley Homes
2. Pulte Homes (or Del Webb, same thing)
3. Centex (which was bought by Pulte)
4. Beazer Homes (again, not in NE Florida anymore, but they did great quality)
5. JL Linder Group, LLC
6. Avreal Development
7. UniFlorida IV
8. Andy Reynolds Homes
9. MB Builders & Associates
10. JC Harward & Associates
As you can see, most of these are privately owned companies whose sole purpose is to please the homebuyer, not shareholders. The exception being Pulte, who has always strived to update their quality standards based on the latest building science. And again, this list is fluid.....some could fall off tomorrow, while others get added, and it's nowhere near a complete list.
If you have any questions about a specific builder you can always ask me in a private message.
I'll probably PM you with questions about other builders. We are 90% certain JCP is where we want to live, but now I am a bit nervous about committing to a property without being able to fully inspect its history.
Again, your input has been invaluable and greatly appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred
That's a tough one....I know what most of the builders were doing during the early stages of JCP, and some were great, and some were terrible.
What makes it even more difficult is that over the years, builders can change their philosophies and so for example, Builder "A" might have been using an excellent system during a particular time period when they had a management that cared about certain things like moisture intrusion and building integrity, and then over time, that management disappears, and the new people that take over either A) Don't care or B) Are too new to the industry to have the education and experience.
What has happened with Lennar going from a top of line System (Fortifiber WeatherSmart) with a Certified Installation company to a substandard installation of inferior products is a question I cannot answer. I can only speculate that it's to cut costs and boost their profit margins to try and please the shareholders if they are a publicly traded company.
What I can say is that some builders, no matter the employee changes throughout the years, abide by quality standards that are very consistent. Some are consistently bad, and some are consistently great.
Currently some of the very best builders in NE Florida include (but are not limited to) the following names:
1. David Weekley Homes
2. Pulte Homes (or Del Webb, same thing)
3. Centex (which was bought by Pulte)
4. Beazer Homes (again, not in NE Florida anymore, but they did great quality)
5. JL Linder Group, LLC
6. Avreal Development
7. UniFlorida IV
8. Andy Reynolds Homes
9. MB Builders & Associates
10. JC Harward & Associates
As you can see, most of these are privately owned companies whose sole purpose is to please the homebuyer, not shareholders. The exception being Pulte, who has always strived to update their quality standards based on the latest building science. And again, this list is fluid.....some could fall off tomorrow, while others get added, and it's nowhere near a complete list.
If you have any questions about a specific builder you can always ask me in a private message.
Hope this helps.
SS
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