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1) Agreed.
2) Why do legal immigration quotas need to be raised? As for who gets to immigrate legally, I'm all for redesigning that aspect of the law to allow for ONLY the poor to immigrate. I see no reason why the U.S. needs to give preference to the educated people from Europe and Asia over-and-above the uneducated and poor. All this current policy does is allow our society to ignore the education of American children in favor of importing professionals. There are plenty of American children who--if educated and supported--could eventually fill those professional jobs. Instead, they are pushed aside in favor of already educated people from other countries. So, again, I would have NO problem with an immigration policy which focused primarily on granting immigration to those most in need of it financially.
3) Why should those who are in the country illegally be able to apply for a visa leadding to an eventual green card? This is what happened in the 1980s and all it did was encourage more illegal immigration, to the point of a crisis.
4) Agreed.
5) Agreed, but why should those who have broken immigration laws by entering the country illegally not be deported? And by "deported," I don't mean rounded-up and shipped out (which would be a logistical nightmare and probably impossible), but "deported" in terms of enforcing current immigration laws--by, for example, fining employers who hire illegal immigrants and, once the jobs dry up, the illegal immigrants will self-deport.
And, I'm curious why it should be the responsibility of the U.S. government and U.S. citizens to take on the burden of millions of Mexico's poor? Why is the Mexican government not being held responsible for their own citizens?
2) Why do legal immigration quotas need to be raised? As for who gets to immigrate legally, I'm all for redesigning that aspect of the law to allow for ONLY the poor to immigrate. I see no reason why the U.S. needs to give preference to the educated people from Europe and Asia over-and-above the uneducated and poor. All this current policy does is allow our society to ignore the education of American children in favor of importing professionals. There are plenty of American children who--if educated and supported--could eventually fill those professional jobs. Instead, they are pushed aside in favor of already educated people from other countries. So, again, I would have NO problem with an immigration policy which focused primarily on granting immigration to those most in need of it financially.
I think legal immigration quotas need to be raised to deal with the reality of our situation:
1. Sustainability: US citizens' reproductive rates are barely sufficient to replace the existing population and they are falling (slowly.) We're about to absorb the retirement of the Boomers as a massive drain on the economy. Unemployment is very low (4.6%) even with the a large population of underpaid undocumented labor sucking up the low-skill jobs and lowering wages to the point where some jobs just aren't worth it for a Citizen. A reasonable influx of hardworking, taxpaying labor will help boost and sustain the economy. Also, the second generation of these immigrants ARE assimilating (even as they change the US sociopolitical landscape) and they will have fewer children than they would were they to remain in their home country. So, it's good for the environment and good for the economy.
2. Hope: Some people are in dire economic straights and are desperate enough to risk dying in the desert to come into the US. Building a wall and flying drones won't stop all of them (even the Berlin Wall didn't), and it may cause more to die trying. If they are given a reasonable hope of immigrating safely, legally, and getting higher wages when they do it legally, that should funnel even the most determined immigrants into the "line" at the border checkpoints even if they have to wait a year or so. The criminals and slackers who can't find employment or pass a background check might still try to cross, but those are the ones we want to catch most of all.
I disagree on the educated/rich point, but I see where you're coming from. I take a US-centric view that we should take talent from other countries to make ourselves stronger. I think the US is the world technological leader thanks to it's political and economic freedoms (and we could be better if we'd stop letting religion or politics dictate where federal funding goes), and I think we will benefit from having more educated minds, and those minds will benefit from being here. On the other hand, it does drain the brains from developing nations.
I don't think we need to screen out smart foreigners so our "dumb" kids can compete. There are smart American kids. They'll hold their own. The not-so-smart ones can work in supporting positions. I'd rather have the airplane I'm riding designed by a smart foreign immigrant than a "dumb" American. Anything else seems like sociological suicide.
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3) Why should those who are in the country illegally be able to apply for a visa leadding to an eventual green card? This is what happened in the 1980s and all it did was encourage more illegal immigration, to the point of a crisis.
5) Agreed, but why should those who have broken immigration laws by entering the country illegally not be deported? And by "deported," I don't mean rounded-up and shipped out (which would be a logistical nightmare and probably impossible), but "deported" in terms of enforcing current immigration laws--by, for example, fining employers who hire illegal immigrants and, once the jobs dry up, the illegal immigrants will self-deport.[/quote]
I view people here illegally (visa overstays, border crossers) who have jobs, houses, families, as productive members of society who are missing a piece of paper. If they had family here, they'd have that piece of paper. But having family here doesn't change who they are or how hard they work (or how much they leech). Rounding them up and deporting them seems like a huge waste of time and effort. Closing/fining businesses so they can't find work seems like shooting our foot off to get rid of a hangnail. It also seems like economic protectionism.
I just don't like the idea of protectionism, which is essentialy what it boils down to when you say you don't have papers so the job goes to a citizen. Right now we're on the other extreme: if you don't have papers, you work for cheap and don't pay taxes. So we're currently stacking the deck against US citizens. I don't think the proper response is to stack the deck against illegal immigrants. I think we should level the playing field. I see a fine as an appropriate penalty for overstaying a visa or crossing the border illegally. I see documentation as a good screening process and a good way to make sure that those jobs "Americans Won't Do" suddenly must pay enough so that Americans Will Do them again.
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And, I'm curious why it should be the responsibility of the U.S. government and U.S. citizens to take on the burden of millions of Mexico's poor? Why is the Mexican government not being held responsible for their own citizens?
I don't think we need to take responsibility for their poor. But if they want to drain their own lifeblood through their own backwards politics, economics, and nepotism AND ship us good laborers who can't get jobs because of their screwed-up system, why shouldn't we take advantage of them?
1) Economic sustainability MUST go hand-in-hand with ecological sustainability. MORE people will eventually--sooner or later--lead to catastrophic environmental destruction. And when that happens, the economy will fail, too.
2) Hope: It is the responsibility of the Mexican government to give their people hope, not the responsibility of the U.S. government or American citizens. If people are fleeing and dying in the desert, it is the Mexican government which should be held accountable, not the U.S. government. Sealing the borders would end this. Also, I'm not sure I buy the argument that it is so very dangerous for most people. Illegal immigrants who get deported are often back in this country in a matter of 2-3 weeks--how "dangerous" can it be for the majority of them?
I also think we will benefit from having more educated minds--I just don't see why those educated minds need to be coming from other countries. In fact, the only reason they are is because we neglect the educational needs of our own children.
3) I strongly disagree. You are, in effect, arguing that American immigration laws have no meaning and that it's perfectly fine for illegal immigrants to flout them as long as they are "productive members of society." In addition, you have conveniently ignored the fact that most of them take jobs from Americans, do not own houses, and are far from "productive." They are causing great strains in many areas of the country, economically and socially. And, again, I did not say they should be "rounded up." Closing and fining businesses for hiring them is merely enforcement of immigration law. "Leveling the playing field" is putting Americans first on U.S. soil. They have broken the law knowingly and should not be rewarded through some paltry "fine." American citizenship should not be something that can be accessed illegally or bought (through a fine). Illegal immigrants do not have the right to be here merely because they are already here. That makes no sense, and makes a mockery of both our laws and the struggle that others go through to get here legally.
As for your last point: If Mexican citizens cannot get jobs because of the screwed-up system in Mexico, then they should be organizing and protesting in the streets of Mexico--which they can surely do, as they've exhibited no hesitancy to do so in our own streets. And, again, the environment of the U.S.--ecologically--cannot "take advantage" of millions and millions of additional people. That's simply a fact.
Mexicans are people like any other people. They are not stupid: they know what they are doing is illegal and they don't care (and not because they are desperately poor, but because they simply want to come here and have no respect either for our country or our laws), and they are very good at manipulating rhetoric in order to get what they want. Mexico is not Rwanda or Darfur: the people can perfectly well protest for their rights. They just prefer to take advantage of the proximity of the U.S., instead. They do not have the right to force themselves, their culture, or their language on the American people. It's a form of covert colonization, encouraged by the Mexican government. That's not paranoia, it's fact. Because if Mexicans were truly interested in becoming American citizens, they would learn our language. They do not. If they did, there would not be bilingual banks, documentation, shopping centers, etc.: businesses in this country have responded to the fact that they will not learn English.
I'm sorry, but I am just not convinced of the innocence, haplessness, helplessness, and victimhood of the Mexican illegal immigrants. They come from the richest country in Latin America, and one that is not involved in a civil war. They should stay home and fix their own country.
Mexicans are people like any other people. They are not stupid: they know what they are doing is illegal and they don't care (and not because they are desperately poor, but because they simply want to come here and have no respect either for our country or our laws), and they are very good at manipulating rhetoric in order to get what they want. Mexico is not Rwanda or Darfur: the people can perfectly well protest for their rights. They just prefer to take advantage of the proximity of the U.S., instead. They do not have the right to force themselves, their culture, or their language on the American people. It's a form of covert colonization, encouraged by the Mexican government. That's not paranoia, it's fact. Because if Mexicans were truly interested in becoming American citizens, they would learn our language. They do not. If they did, there would not be bilingual banks, documentation, shopping centers, etc.: businesses in this country have responded to the fact that they will not learn English.
I'm sorry, but I am just not convinced of the innocence, haplessness, helplessness, and victimhood of the Mexican illegal immigrants. They come from the richest country in Latin America, and one that is not involved in a civil war. They should stay home and fix their own country.
You'll get tremendous flack for the above statement, but it's absolutely true. I'll go on record now in agreeing with you. Despite the political minefield you've entered, there's simply no way anyone who reads the above can disagree with you on principle--my hunch is that you'll be called "mean", or "racist", or "bigoted"; however, what you WON'T be called is illogical, because you aren't.
I've always been of the belief (long before I discovered this forum) that all human institutions are similar, differing mainly in degree. Thus a country is like a state, or a neighborhood, a trade union, or even a family. It has its standards of behavior, its rules, traditions, etc., etc.... Mexico, in that regard, is not a great deal different from the abusive alcoholic down the street who spends his money on booze and gambling, and deprives his wife and children of food and clothing. Just where does your responsibility to his family's problems kick in, and his responsibilities end? By all means, help the family out- it's the decent thing to do. But don't be bullied into accepting the responsibility to raise and support your neighbor's kids. That's his job--period. He has plenty of money, he simply chooses to "blow" it. That's not your doing.
Nothing in your post indicates a dislike or aversion to Mexicans, but only to the act of illegal immigration. It's no more emotional or illogical a position to hold than to be against trespassers upon your property, or people who fail to pay their light bill, or people who steal towels from motels-- they may not be "bad" people, but plainly they're doing something wrong and illegal, and no one in good conscience can really advocate or defend their actions. It's no more complicated than that.
When people go shopping and carry a sack of groceries out of the store without paying, they instantly become shoplifters. We, as a society, get mad at them. They get in trouble. We insist they stop this behavior, as we have every right to do. Just as "shoppers" are different from "shoplifters", and "trespassers" are different from "houseguests", so are "legal immigrants" different from "illegal immigrants". Anyone who doesn't see this just doesn't want to.
It's quite frustrating, actually. The way the media and the supporters for illegal immigrants have hijacked the rhetoric, it becomes impossible to take an intelligent stand against illegal immigration without being called "racist" or "anti-immigrant"--as though race has anything to do with it or the fact of being legal v. illegal is irrelevant. I realize that there are many people who *are* racist, and are against the presence of illegal immigrants for primarily racist reasons, but that fact doesn't obviate the additional fact that there are justifiable and important reasons for not supporting the granting of permanent residency, green card, or citizenship status to illegal immigrants. My concerns are primarily environmental, and secondarily cultural/economic/social. I would feel exactly the same way if 20 million Europeans were entering our country illegally and taking jobs from American citizens and putting the same enormous stresses on our future environmental health, as well as on our health care and educational systems. The fact that most illegal immigrants in our society today, however, come from a patriarchal culture of poverty and violence means that the U.S. is forced to bear the additional burden of that particular culture, as well as the other burdens I've already listed. But this has absolutely nothing to do with race. That that culture happens to be Mexican is entirely beside the point.
If I am ever pulled over for speeding, I am going to tell the officer that I left my driver's license at home to see if I get a pass as an "undocumented speeder"...just a thought.
Technically, the verbage is correct. Immigrant is one that moves "in". Emmigrant is one that moves "out". I suppose the term "Illegal Immigrant" is correct--one that "moved in" illegally. I don't know why we can't call them "Vagabond Criminals" or "Roving Felons" though, because that's exactly what they are. I can't, for the life of me, wrap my head around the fact that we daily allow people from a certain country break the law at will. I will be jailed if I refuse to pay the fine for leaving my car parked in front of a meter for too long, but Aliens will be welcomed if they refuse to respect the sovereignty of my nation.
Cap
Last edited by CaptainObvious; 08-16-2007 at 09:27 PM..
When people go shopping and carry a sack of groceries out of the store without paying, they instantly become shoplifters. We, as a society, get mad at them. They get in trouble. We insist they stop this behavior, as we have every right to do. Just as "shoppers" are different from "shoplifters", and "trespassers" are different from "houseguests", so are "legal immigrants" different from "illegal immigrants". Anyone who doesn't see this just doesn't want to.
This is exactly correct. Motive has nothing to do with it. The supporters of illegals tell us "they are hard working people that just want a job". This is an admirable and desireable trait. More Americans ought to be into hard work. Now, hard work yourself right on over to a Visa and we'll have no problem. I have a strong desire to be rich. There are two means to achieve this end: I can start my own business or invent something people want. OR, I can rob a bank. One is illegal under US law, the other is not. If I chose to rob the bank, nobody would say "he's just a down-and-out guy that wanted to be rich. Let's let him be". Not only is there no difference between robbing a bank and crossing a border illegally- I argue crossing the border is much worse.
The problem is that none of you have any visibility as to how it is impossible for a normal person to get a visa to legally immigrate to the United States, due to our current system.
If you want to be rich, you can work hard and generate wealth rather than robbing a bank. But imagine if there was a law that only relatives of rich people who file the proper documents and wait 10 years could make more than 5 dollars a day. What would you do then?
If you wish to live in the U.S., you obey U.S. laws. Too simple.
I find a singular lack of compassion amongst illegals' apologists towards American citizens. I live in Los Angeles, where so many aspects of our quality of life have been lessened directly by the presence of illegals overpowering our systems in place (an estimated 300 illegals enter L.A. daily.) I am taxed by our city to provide services for these, dare I say, "spongers," services that I will never get. My cars have been totalled by drivers' license-less uninsured foreign nationals. Deserving and desperate American citizens, whether born or naturalized, find most entry-level jobs gone to paid-under-the-table illegals. Signage eschews English. And radio stations here blare La Raza uber alles.
fastfilm: I agree. It's amazing. Sadly, such people put the interests of others above the interests of Americans--and even of the U.S. Usually--aside from the illegals themselves--these are people far removed from the daily stresses of their presence: they don't have children or their children go to private school; they have ready access to health care through employer-paid insurance; they are wealthy or upper-middle-class and do not have to deal with dangerous streets; they are just your usual unthinking, well-meaning liberal who jumps on any bandwagon in order to guard a sense of one's self as being on the "good" side; or, they have ties--through marriage or heritage--to the illegal community. In my opinion, the problems are quite obvious to anyone who wishes to see them, and to anyone who has any concern whatsoever for the citizens of this country.
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