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I am having an adventure with a 1954-built investment property I bought. It has some electrical outlets that are the old 2-prong type and some that are the 2-slits plus lower round type we typically see these days. My electrician is coming next week to assess the situation. But he guesses that none of the outlets are grounded and the newer outlets were just installed for convenience b/c the owner was tired of dealing with adapters. Since the house is on a slab, he says the cheapest way to deal with this is to change all the outlets back to the old 2-prong b/c the house would be ok "code-wise" if restored to the reality of its situation. Then any tenants (this is a rent house) will have to use adapters but won't be under the false impression that the outlets are grounded.
He says it will be expensive to ground all the outlets b/c we have to run wires to the attic. What's your take on this situation???
I'm not an expert here, and I'm sure others will chime in that will know better then I.
I do not think that would be my first choice. While you would not want to do this with every receptacle, you can replace a 2 prong, ungrounded receptacle with a GFCI. It would NOT protect any receptacles down the line, but it would protect that one.
I would check to see if you do have a ground inside the box, or if you have BX cable. If so, I'd ask the electrician if you are able to then add a ground wire to the box to a new receptacle, since the BX would be the ground. I do not know if this is allowed.....you would have to check with him.
I do see his reasoning.....it just seems like it is not an upgrade....if it were me, I'd run new wire up through the attic...it is more work, but if it is a ranch style house and you have an assessable attic, it would be do-able. It's your call.....probably dependent on how much you can do, and how much you would pay someone else to do it.
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirl
I am having an adventure with a 1954-built investment property I bought. It has some electrical outlets that are the old 2-prong type and some that are the 2-slits plus lower round type we typically see these days. My electrician is coming next week to assess the situation. But he guesses that none of the outlets are grounded and the newer outlets were just installed for convenience b/c the owner was tired of dealing with adapters. Since the house is on a slab, he says the cheapest way to deal with this is to change all the outlets back to the old 2-prong b/c the house would be ok "code-wise" if restored to the reality of its situation. Then any tenants (this is a rent house) will have to use adapters but won't be under the false impression that the outlets are grounded.
He says it will be expensive to ground all the outlets b/c we have to run wires to the attic. What's your take on this situation???
Depending on the previous ownership of the house, it could be that you have properly grounded outlets through a portion of the house and old two-wire ungrounded elsewhere.
I'm not an electrician either, but I believe that if no other grounding method exists you would be up to minimum code if you install GFI protection (in your situation it may be more cost effective to replace your circuit breakers with GFI breakers rather than install GFI outlets), replace the 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets and mark everything as "GFI PROTECTED, NO EQUIPMENT GROUND".
Grounding the whole house will be a miserable job of pulling wire in an old attic that was not designed with electrical retrofit in mind and could easily breeze past $10,000 in labor and materials (particularly if you don't have the wallcover in the living space down to the studs), BUT, that is really the right way to do it... If you elect to go that route, you may as well upgrade from 100A to 200A service (assuming you have old 100A).
Maybe talk to your electrician about working as his helper. You can carve a good bit out of his bill if he doesn't have to pay another set of hands and you can learn quite a bit about wiring.
Last edited by jimboburnsy; 11-02-2010 at 10:15 AM..
The last thing I would want from tenants would be a lawsuit because they used the older outlets and were shocked or worse. I would check with the local building inspector to make sure that everything in the house is up to code since you will be renting and liable for any problems with the house that could harm your tenants. The building inspector will be your "friend" here and he will inspect the house for free because that is his job when a structure is renovated, changed in the manner of plumbing and electricity, etc.. Contact him and set up a inspection telling him about the change in electrical outlets.
First of all a GFCI outlet only protects against ground faults and is not a substitute for grounding. 2 different things.
If I had limited access (like a slab), here is what I would do:
1. I would confirm that the 3 prong outlets that are already installed are NOT grounded, or have a "bootleg ground". If they are properly grounded - GOOD!
2. If the existing 3 prong are NOT grounded, I would replace them with 2 prong outlets.
3. There are two outlets that really are "must haves" in the grounding game, the refrigerator, and the washing machine.
4. I would probably run a new circuit and provide grounded 3 prong outlets in each bedroom, the living room, and the kitchen, just because there is likely something with a 3 prong cord that someone is going to need to plug in. You can go into the attic and run wire mold or conduit down the walls to provide a properly grounded outlet. That way renters can plug in their microwave, computers, and entertainment stuff without having to worry.
^^^ Good Advice... the worst case is to do nothing and assume the grounded outlets are grounded...
It's a situation that happens all the time in my city... The city Housing Compliance checks every outlet in each rental for proper receptacles when renters receive assistance.
The old style costs several times more than the equivalent grounded receptacle. I've looked for quality non grounded and not been able to find it.
My rental agreements in homes with non-grounded receptacles make note of any that are properly grounded... makes it easy to prove the wiring was tampered with down the road... I've found tenants often change outlets... one even wanted a credit against his move out deposit for "Upgrading" my home.
Last week I looked at a home for a friend... every outlet had been replaced with grounded outlets and not one was grounded.
My city also requires GFCI receptacles, with or without ground in bathrooms and kitchen counters
install GFCI's, convert 2-prong to 3, and be done with it. perfectly safe and legal installation per the NEC.
Using a GFCI receptacle will protect those downstream through the line/load wiring configuration.
However, most older homes featured a central junction box above each room with a star topography wiring pattern to each outlet location, meaning GFCI receps would be required @ every outlet. So in this case we use the GFCI circuit breaker.
There is no danger of anyone being shocked because of no ground using the GFCI's.
I don't understand why anyone thinks a tenant could bring a successful lawsuit against you for anything; a proper lease agreement should CYA.
Rewire if you wish, but I wouldn't even consider it on a rental property.
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 38,779,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southgeorgia
install GFCI's, convert 2-prong to 3, and be done with it. perfectly safe and legal installation per the NEC.
Using a GFCI receptacle will protect those downstream through the line/load wiring configuration.
However, most older homes featured a central junction box above each room with a star topography wiring pattern to each outlet location, meaning GFCI receps would be required @ every outlet. So in this case we use the GFCI circuit breaker.
There is no danger of anyone being shocked because of no ground using the GFCI's.
I don't understand why anyone thinks a tenant could bring a successful lawsuit against you for anything; a proper lease agreement should CYA.
Rewire if you wish, but I wouldn't even consider it on a rental property.
Hang on now... I think that you could defeat a GFI by cutting a lamp cord, stripping back about 10" of sheathing on both conductor wires, wrapping one bare wire around your left hand and one bare wire around your right hand, standing on a 3/4" piece of plywood covered with a rubber horse stall mat, gritting your teeth and plugging in the cord.
So it may not be strictly accurate to say that there is no danger.
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