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Meaning that hypothetically speaking, there are laws in Russia.
Why, do you think that you are the one and only who lived in the Soviet Union? How presumptuous of you.
Both of my grandfathers came to Moscow from different republics back in 30ies of previous century.
I do not exclude possibility as well that you might be a Russian born and raised somewhere in Alma-Ata for example.
Who says "hypothetically speaking"? Western propaganda?
I don't think that I am the only one who lived in the USSR. I also understand that there were lots of people who did not like living in the Soviet Union; like there are lots of Americans who don't like living in USA, and lots of British who don't like it in Britain...
But I know only too well those who throw dirt at the Soviet Union and at Russia: they are generally refereed to as "the fifth column". There are some of them going for instructions to US embassy:
No, that's not what we are talking about; that means that when you pack people of different ages, old and young, in the train and drop them off in the middle of nowhere, like Siberia or Kazahstan with an order to build a camp for a example, people have tendency to die in droves because of exposure, inadequate medical help ( if any) and inadequate food ( if any.) Or if you take away anything that peasants have ( be that food or wheat, rye - I am talking about prodrazverstka for example,) the peasants have tendency to die along with their families from hunger. And if they dare to resist their destiny ( take note of that,) they are accused as "kulaks," enemy of people - whatever, and still sentenced to die.
Things like that, which are historical fact, so what kind of propaganda you are trying to use here - I have no idea. Because good ole Soviet propaganda is sooooo yesterday.
You were telling me that there were NO LAWS, NO COURTS and NO JUDGES. And now you are giving me "stories". OK', let's deal with your stories.
1. "pack people of different ages, old and young"
There were different types of camps and settlements withing GULAG. The one you just mentioned was for FAMILIES. That's why people there were of "different ages".
For example, after Poland was occupied by Germans, many Poles run onto the Soviet territory. They were given a choice to either stay in the USSR or go back to what was Poland. But for that German permission was needed. Those who wanted to go back and got German permission were sent to Poland, but those who opted to stay, or did not get a permission had to be moved away from the front-line -- to SETTLEMENTS. Yes, in some cases they had to build their own homes -- the inhumanity of it! Perhaps, "Russian" slaves should've done it for them? Or would you be happier if families of those refugees were separated?
Same applied for those convicted of crimes that required long sentences, but were allowed to continue living with their families.
2. "exposure, inadequate medical help ( if any) and inadequate food". They lived how everyone else around them lived. And don't give me cr*p about "no medical help". Better tell me about abundance of life for US farmers in 1930-s.
3. "about prodrazverstka for example".
Maybe your parents lived in the USSR, but you are definitely a product of US edumacation:
"prodrazverstka" was introduced in 1916 (that would be under Tsar); and ended in 1921 (that would be a year before the Soviet Union was created. It existed at the time of WAR!!!!!
4. "kulaks," enemy of people - whatever, and still sentenced to die"
It's "whatever" only for US edumacated propaganda consumers.
Kulaks were NOT sentenced at all if they did not commit any crimes. But those who did (and many killed their livestock, burned grain, murdered their local activists; damaged equipment on collective farms) were sentenced accordingly.
Tell me, what would happen to a person in USA who would murder a policeman, or burn a bank, for example? Would such person be given a medal, or put into prison or even given a death sentence?
1. Firstly, the very word "HOLODOmor" suggests that it was concocted by a person who did not speak Russian and thus did not know that "holod" means "COLD". Fanime would be "GOLOD" -- "GOLODOmor".
The word is Ukrainian: Голодомор or 'Морити голодом'. It literally translates as "Killing by hunger".
Holod = hunger and mor = plague
Moryty Holodom = to inflict death by hunger
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Secondly, your "Ukrainian diaspora" which consists mainly of those who run to US and Canada from Western parts of Ukraine forgets to mention one interesting fact: at the time of promoted by them "Holodomor" West Ukraine was divided between Romania and Poland and had nothing to do with the USSR or Stalin.
Thirdly, famine affected many parts of the USSR, not just Ukraine; and not all regions of Ukraine suffered from famine.
And finally: If Stalin was responsible for the famine in the USSR, then who was responsible for famine in Romania, Germany, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland and the USA?
Except, there was no famine in Galicia, it seemed to only strike in the Ukraine SSR, Moldavia ASSR and the Kuban region, which not surprisingly was populated mainly by Ukrainians. Between 1926 and 1939 the population of Russia increased 16.9%. The population of Belarus increased by 11.7%. The population of the Ukraine grew only by 6.6%. It's kind of obvious that something happened there.
Additionally, there is no reason for the famine in these areas. Rainfall amounts were normal, the crop grew just fine. The reason there was famine is that the Soviet policies royally screwed up production and then they took advantage of the situation and placed impossible quotas upon the Ukrainian farmers. When the farmers couldn't make the quota they sent people into the countryside to confiscate whatever food they could find.
There ultimately is no point in arguing with this about you, you are blind to any reality but the one you have been conditioned to believe. If you are not going to accept the word of Ukrainian communists, Russian historians and numerous authors, then I'm not going to sway your mind.
For anyone else who may be interested, I came across this class summary/syllabus from the University of Chicago that deals with the Holodomor. It runs to 36 pages but is an amazing and WELL CITED history of what happened including the lead up and various economic decisions that were made by the Soviet government that laid the ground work for what happened. Anyone interested in the topic would probably find this summary fascinating and well worth the read. It also includes several eye witness accounts that are well vetted and sourced:
Oh, and the book does not DENY the famine, it only points out to the source of the bulls*it surrounding it. You need to learn to read.
...and you need to get your head out of your ass.
You believe that this was reality:
When in reality it was this:
*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
Spoiler
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2. Why don't you find out? Contact Russia's archives, and find out.
I don't need to, I'm not the one trying to refute something that is pretty much considered a universal truth. You are honestly the first Russian/Soviet I have ever known in real life or online that actually denied these things took place. You must have born in the 1990's and raised on old Soviet movies and propaganda by your party loyalist parents.
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3. And in the USSR accused were presumed innocent until found guilty and stood trial in front of a judge and jury before being convicted and sentenced for their crime. Well?
NO, they weren't. Some were, many "stood trial" in front of the local party officials in their village who then passed and executed the sentence. These were pretty much the definition of "kangaroo court". Again, no one generally denies these things happened, but many do frame it into something of necessity, which is what this thread started out discussing. Stalin was brutal and did many evil things, but his means did accomplish an end, so what if millions had to die to get there? Your the first person I've heard who actually denies the "millions" part. Check that, there was a girl I went to high school with who was an ardent communist, she denied it.
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4. And your "illustration" was neither here nor there. If they were punished, I want to know for what crime and what was the sentence. And I am not interested in speculative "illustrations".
...and I am not interested in you challenging widespread and known facts without any sources to back it up. You've presented one "source" which I thoroughly trashed and have put up nothing else of substance except to say that every modern Russian and western historian who has written about this is writing "fiction". So, if the rest of the world is so wrong and you are so right...prove it.
The word is Ukrainian: Голодомор or 'Морити голодом'. It literally translates as "Killing by hunger".
Holod = hunger and mor = plague
Moryty Holodom = to inflict death by hunger
NJ, he/she knows perfectly well ( or should know at least) that the word "holodomor" is simply spelled in Ukrainian way, instead of regular Russian "golodomor," in the same manner as the regular Russian name Vladimir is spelled in Ukrainian as Volodomir for example. I understand the sentiment among Russians that there is really no such thing as "Ukrainian language," because it's a dialect of Russian language, and Ukrainians were never really targeted for extermination as an ethnic group during golodomor (as they claim lately.)
I happen to agree with that, if only for a reason that those were the times of class warfare and Ukraine happened to have a lot of peasants, since traditionally it was a breadbasket of Russia.
However this Alma person is not about rationality - he/she belongs to kind of Russians who are obsessed with ideas and are in denial of anything else, that might undermine the idea they believe in.
This is called err... spirituality, or better to say the "dark side" of it, because spirituality is not always about Pushkin, Tolstoy or Schiller and Goethe, unfortunately.
So this is a fine example of "special affinity to Russian soul" that Germans claim ( I talked about it earlier) and not without a reason.
These are not the prominent traits among the Anglo-Saxons, or even French for this matter; it takes special kind of national character to be carried away by this or that belief to extreme.
PS.
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You are honestly the first Russian/Soviet I have ever known in real life or online that actually denied these things took place.
NJ, he/she knows perfectly well ( or should know at least) that the word "holodomor" is simply spelled in Ukrainian way, instead of regular Russian "golodomor," in the same manner as the regular Russian name Vladimir is spelled in Ukrainian as Volodomir for example. I understand the sentiment among Russians that there is really no such thing as "Ukrainian language," because it's a dialect of Russian language,
So, is it like the difference between Spanish spoken in Spain versus Mexico (large difference where speakers may not even understand each other even though they are speaking the "same" language) or is it more like the difference between English in the US and Britain (minor differences with spelling and usage of some words, but generally everyone understands each other)?
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and Ukrainians were never really targeted for extermination as an ethnic group during golodomor (as they claim lately.) I happen to agree with that, if only for a reason that those were the times of class warfare and Ukraine happened to have a lot of peasants, since traditionally it was a breadbasket of Russia.
That is still a debated topic. It basically comes down to whether or not you think there is evidence that specific policies were implemented to punish the Ukrainians and exacerbate the existing situation. The link I posted from the University of Chicago follows the intentional model and lays out a very strong case on why based on Ukrainian nationalism and their general resistance to Soviet economic policies.
I was very interested to read about the interplay of forced collectivization and taking of the grain harvest in 1921, then the backing off of the collectivization policies under mass protest. The policies were then reinvigorated later in the 1920's under Stalin which led to the famines in the early 1930's. However, they very specifically pointed out a series of policy directives issued only in the Ukraine and Ukrainian dominated areas that incredibly exacerbated the situation.
I also found interesting the changing definition of the "kulaks". Lenin had applied Marx's society theories to the Russian village and divided people there into classes with the "kulaks" at the top. What I found interesting was the changing definition of who a "kulak" was and the prosecution that followed. This class warfare did fall disproportionately hard on the Ukrainians.
So, I guess it remains up for debate in terms of whether or not what happened was an intentional genocide or exacerbated into one by certain policy decisions. What is without a doubt is that there was a massive famine and millions died (not just in the Ukraine but all over the USSR) as a direct result of Stalin's policies. Ultimately that was the beginning of the argument when it came to challenging the "20 million" number in terms of Russian deaths attributed to Stalin. Whether the Holodomor is a genocide or not is ultimately immaterial as those people died as a direct result of Stalins policies.
NO, they weren't. Some were, many "stood trial" in front of the local party officials in their village who then passed and executed the sentence. .
Of course! You don't need to contact archives to find out the numbers for GULAG by crime, by sentence, by gender, by age, etc.
Why would you, when all your life you were fed mantras and sounbites that did not require any effort on your part, not in terms of independent research, nor in terms of thinking. All you had to do was to slavishly repeat them.
That's fine by me: if you prefer to be ignorant, it's your business.
So, are you going to tell us what crime your grandad was sentenced for?
Did he work in Polish concentration camps torturing Galitchian and Belorussian peasants? Was he part of the death squads used to murder starving Galitchians? Or was he convicted of cruelty to his house or farm slaves?
It is no longer a "state secret", just how out of touch with reality Westerners are, especially Americans! And you still bring forward your "Chicago University" "findings" and suchlike "historical" tripe!
Why did your "historians" avoid mentioning famine in Poland? After all, they can find newspapers of 1930-s in the archives! So, why do they keep silent about famine in other countries of Europe and in the US?
Don't make people laugh with US coined "knowledge of the world"!
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