Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
[b]Gulags: 1.75-2.75 million dead depending on how you count.
.
If I will ask you for sources of your numbers and rumblings you will serve me with a number of "works" by Western "historians" who, if to study their sources, point at each other or at Soldghenitsyn.
But if to look at the OFFICIAL records, the picture will be as follows:
At the peak of "repressions" -- 1937 the whole system of GULAG contained 1.196.369 people. Out of that number 87% were criminals. The remaining %% were there for commiting contr-revolutionary crimes: acts of terrorism, sabotage, anti-Soviet agitation, treason.
In 1947 GULAG contained 1.7 million inmates, out of that number -- 40% criminals, the rest were former Nazi police, trators, Nazi agents, OUN/UPA, Vlasovtsy, Forest Brothers and other "inocent" creatures.
The maximum number GULAG ever had was in 1950 -- 2 561 351; out of that number 77% were criminals, the rest: see paragraph above.
For comparison: now, in peaceful times in the most democratic and free democracy of all -- USA 2.3 million people are in prisons and camps. And that's not taking into account Guantanamo and other CIA prisons!
Congratulations: your "knowledge" of famine in the USSR comes straight from Dr Goebbels! No surprise, since the US and Canada gave safety to Nazis and employed them for purposes of Cold War.
"Hearst's relationship with the Nazis in 1934 is of critical importance in understanding a major element of American anti-Communist propaganda. In 1934 Hearst published a number of stories about the 1932-1933 famine in Ukraine. Nazi Germany had been waging a major anti-Communist propaganda campaign as part of its agenda, fascism being the "sworn enemy" or communism.
As part of this larger propaganda campaign the German Ministry of Propaganda created a story about a Soviet program of genocide in Ukraine. This was all part of the larger German plans to not only put down Communist support in Germany, but justify later invasions to the east under the banner of "liberation."
The Germans manufactured stories about the famine in Ukraine and used false photographs to depict the famine conditions as worse than they really were, including pictures from a 1920-22 famine in Russia during the Russian Civil War and pictures of famine conditions during World War I of regions that were not even Russian.
The Germans wanted to expand this propaganda campaign against the USSR to potential rival states which it hoped to build support in, such as the United States and Britain. This is where Hearst came in.
Hearst's role for the Nazis was to try and build Nazi sympathy in America, which was to be achieved by both portraying Nazi Germany in a good light, as well as portraying Germany's primary target, the Soviet Union, and Communism in general, in an exaggeratedly negative light.
Hearst picked up the Ukraine famine story in 1934, about a year after the famine actually took place. In a press like the Hearst Press everything relied on "breaking news." Had Hearst had a real interest in covering the Ukraine famine it would have been covered in 1932 and 1933 when it was taking place, however it was not covered in Hearst presses until 1934, after he picked up the story for the Nazis.
Hearst's Ukraine famine stories have proven to have had a huge impact among Americans, and even today the majority of Americans believe that there actually was a "Ukraine Holocaust." Common figures are that 6 million people died in Ukraine under Stalin's rule in what was an intentional starving to death of these millions of people. This 6 million figure is in fact a pure fabrication of Nazi propaganda. The idea that Ukrainians were intentionally starved to death is likewise a product of Nazi propaganda, picked up by Hearst and spread to the United States, where it was accepted at truth, and for the most part still is today..."
Btw, how can you explain the famine of 1930-s in Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Germany, Poland and the USA? Was it Stalin who caused it?
Really, you're going to trot out Douglas Tottles book as an actual source to deny that the Holodomor occurred? Do you even know who he is? Tottle is NOT a professional historian by any stretch. He is a labor union activist that has written extensively for communist and trade union publications in Canada. The book you are quoting is the only book he has ever published and it was only published by the pro-coomunist publishing house Progress Publishers in Canada. The book was released in late 1987 nearly at the same time that Shcherbynsky for the first time publicly acknowledged that the famine had occurred and was as devastating as it was do to, "the policies and decisions of the Soviet government." The book was immediately pulled from circulation, because the book didn't just claim that it wasn't an act of genocide it claimed that it NEVER happened, that it was ALL a lie.
His book dedicates 90% of its content to examining the "fascist conspiracy" and only around 10% of the book even deals with the famine. He even states on PAGE ONE of the book that "this book does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way". He then goes on to state that the purpose is to "explore the Nazi and fascist connections and the coverup of wartime collaboration". The book is basically a conspiracy theory, not an actual historical study.
In the sections that he does dedicate to the famine he says that "mistakes and amateurish planning by the Soviet government did not cause the famine". In his mind what caused the famine was, "Ukrainian saboteurs who resisted collectivization". His books treatment of the Ukrainian diaspora was so over the top it was labelled as "hate speech". Today, the book is not part of any serious academic study and it isn't even really available for purchase except through a handful of organizations like the "Stalin Society in Great Britain" and the "Swedish Communist Party". You are keeping great company trotting this out as proof of anything.
On top of all of that, whether you want to believe it or not, Tottle was approached to write his book by the Soviet embassy in Canada. The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada had been making waves about recognizing that the Holodomor occurred and were going to build a monument to it in Edmonton. Tottle's book was reviewed and edited in Kiev before being published. The changes include removing references to Ukrainian Fascism in the title and eliminating references to known Soviet writers.
His book also completely ignores the large numbers of western writers including several American reporters such as Walter Duranty and Louis Fischer. Men like Bernard Shaw and HG Wells also went to visit and reported that there was no famine as did the then French Prime Minister Edouard Herriot. Of course what is now known, but not at the time is that Duranty was basically passing Soviet propaganda straight through in his stories that all had to be approved by Soviet censors. Fischer was a diehard communist. The people who visited were shown a very staged event with full shops and ardent communists posing as peasants. According to the ACTUAL historian Goerge Conquest of Stanford University, this was the first example of the Soviets using the "Big Lie" propaganda technique, the one made famous by Hitler in Mein Kampf. Of course, the real story is that throughout that time information about what was going on was leaking out and people were aware of what was happening even in the 1930's. The propaganda lie is what was perpetrated then, by the Soviets, to cover up what was happening.
Of course, you don't have to believe any western or Russian "experts", Leonid Kravchuk, former President of the Ukraine and a communist leader openly wrote about discovering the truth about what happened in his auotbiography. This revelation led to the first publishing of a book in the Ukraine affirming what had happened. Select quotes from his book:
Quote:
"Thanks to the position of the new leader of the republican communist party, Ukraine saw its first book on the Holodomor. That was, without exaggeration, a bold move. I do not want to speak ill of Shcherbytsky, but I could not imagine a similar publication appearing when he was first person of the republic. Ivashko instructed me to collect the necessary materials. I was already familiar with this bitter subject. In the early 1980s many publications began appearing in the Western press on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of one of the most horrific tragedies in the history of our people. A counter-propaganda machine was put into motion, and I was one of its "wheels." It was then, in 1984 I believe, that I first had an opportunity to study a small selection of archival materials. What I read and saw astonished me. It was total terror and I constantly chased away the idea that these pitiful people were doomed to torture by design. That understanding came several years later."
"It soon became apparent that neither Ivashko nor I (already somewhat familiar with these materials) could grasp the entire scope of the evil. With an opportunity to study the materials more closely, I felt a second shock, far more powerful than the one experienced in 1984. The crime was so horrible and the Communist Party's guilt so apparent, that I lost the ability to think about anything else. I had always enjoyed a strong sleep, even in hostile conditions. But now I first encountered insomnia: the faces of the children killed by famine stood before my eyes constantly. I began to feel remorseful as I realized that I belong to an organization that can justifiably be called criminal. At the same time I did not want to associate the monsters guilty of murdering millions of my countrymen with many of the honest and respectable communists whom I knew and worked with."
"The selected materials and photographs (one and half thousand, I believe) were passed on to the first secretary. Ivashko telephoned me soon thereafter. His voice was trembling: ‘This can’t be so!’ He refused to believe and I understood why. He ordered a publication ban until such time that evidence was found that the famine was not artificial. Ivashko ordered me to see if there were droughts in Ukraine in those years. I sent a request to the republican Hydromedtsentr state hydrological center, but they did not keep those kinds of records. I sent requests to appropriate services in Moscow and they provided very detailed information. It showed that rainfall levels for those years were not lower than acceptable norms. This was a very serious argument and Ivashko decided to raise the issue at a meeting of the politburo. The discussion was not easy, but thanks to the principled nature of the first secretary, the book's publication was approved. Many were understandably displeased with the decision. However, the most terrifying photographs were not approved for print, and their number was reduced from 1,500 to around 350."
The European Parliament, Canada, United States, UNESCO, United Nations, the government of the UKRAINE and 40 other world governments and bodies recognize the famine as a form genocide. So, you can have old Soviet propaganda and the ramblings of a Canadian labor activist if you want, the rest of us will dwell in truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alma1
If I will ask you for sources of your numbers and rumblings you will serve me with a number of "works" by Western "historians" who, if to study their sources, point at each other or at Soldghenitsyn.
But if to look at the OFFICIAL records, the picture will be as follows:
At the peak of "repressions" -- 1937 the whole system of GULAG contained 1.196.369 people. Out of that number 87% were criminals. The remaining %% were there for commiting contr-revolutionary crimes: acts of terrorism, sabotage, anti-Soviet agitation, treason.
In 1947 GULAG contained 1.7 million inmates, out of that number -- 40% criminals, the rest were former Nazi police, trators, Nazi agents, OUN/UPA, Vlasovtsy, Forest Brothers and other "inocent" creatures.
The maximum number GULAG ever had was in 1950 -- 2 561 351; out of that number 77% were criminals, the rest: see paragraph above.
For comparison: now, in peaceful times in the most democratic and free democracy of all -- USA 2.3 million people are in prisons and camps. And that's not taking into account Guantanamo and other CIA prisons!
How many of the 1,196,396 people in the "system" in 1937 were part of the 1,700,000 in the "system" in 1947. How many of those were still part of the system at its peak of 2,561,351 in 1950? You won't believe "my experts" even though many modern Russian historians have written condemnations of the gulag system. See, that's the thing. You're quoting total numbers in the system and using that as evidence that the claimed numbers couldn't have died. What better way to cover up deaths then by simply continuing to imprison more and more people.
As for the US, yes we have the largest incarcerated population per capita on Earth. With the exception of whatever the CIA is playing around with, all of them were presumed innocent until found guilty and stood trial in front of a judge and jury before being convicted and sentenced for their crime. Those people then go to a prison where they are guaranteed three meals a day, get to plays sports, watch TV and take classes to "better" themselves. I venture pretty much everyone in a gulag or facing collectivization would have chosen incarceration in the modern US over the situation they found themselves in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alma1
Excuse me, why are you inviting ME to "pick a reason"?!
Where they sent to "Siberia" or not?
If "yes", then the reason was clearly listed; and I am asking WHAT IT WAS?!
I have no idea what that other posters grandparents experienced. I was just trying to illustrate the point that you didn't need to be a nasty criminal to be sent to a gulag. Your figures above quoted a large percentage of the people were "criminals", well what crime did they commit to get sentenced to the gulag? In the article in the OP of this thread, a woman told her story of being sentenced to 10 years hard labor for stealing a bag of beets to feed her starving siblings. She is one of the "criminals" in your percentages. Unless you define "criminal" then you have no point to make.
For instance, right now in the US there is a debate raging over the decriminalization of marijuana. Of the 2.3 million people in jail right now, rougly 300,000 of them are there for charges relating to marijuana. Just as you find it ridiculous that we incarcerate hundreds of thousands of people for smoking pot, I think it's a little ludicrous that the lady who stole some beets is to be considered a "criminal" worthy of 10 years hard labor in a gulag.
If I will ask you for sources of your numbers and rumblings you will serve me with a number of "works" by Western "historians" who, if to study their sources, point at each other or at Soldghenitsyn.
But if to look at the OFFICIAL records, the picture will be as follows:
At the peak of "repressions" -- 1937 the whole system of GULAG contained 1.196.369 people. Out of that number 87% were criminals. The remaining %% were there for commiting contr-revolutionary crimes: acts of terrorism, sabotage, anti-Soviet agitation, treason.
In 1947 GULAG contained 1.7 million inmates, out of that number -- 40% criminals, the rest were former Nazi police, trators, Nazi agents, OUN/UPA, Vlasovtsy, Forest Brothers and other "inocent" creatures.
The maximum number GULAG ever had was in 1950 -- 2 561 351; out of that number 77% were criminals, the rest: see paragraph above.
For comparison: now, in peaceful times in the most democratic and free democracy of all -- USA 2.3 million people are in prisons and camps. And that's not taking into account Guantanamo and other CIA prisons!
That the credible testimony of scholars like Boris Pasternak, Andrei Sakharov, Vasily Grossman, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, et al is denied, leaves little room for reason in a discussion. Even if we were to incorrectly assume that many of the people sent to the gulags were guilty, certainly the enormous toll of innocent children who died in the terror-famine of 1929 to 1932 was appalling. In his memoirs, Nikita Khrushev said, "I can't give an exact figure because no one was keeping count. All we know is that people were dying in enormous numbers."
As Pasternak said, it was the "inhuman power of the lie" that enabled the war on the peasantry in what Stalin called the "revolution from above." Deception was practiced on a grand scale and unwittingly abetted by naive western writers, who were shown Potemkin villages and were eager to believe in the Soviet "miracle." There is no way to deny that a human tragedy of almost indescribable proportions occurred in this man-made disaster.
1. Really, you're going to trot out Douglas Tottles book as an actual source to deny that the Holodomor occurred?
The European Parliament, Canada, United States, UNESCO,
2. How many of the 1,196,396 people in the "system" in 1937 were part of the 1,700,000 in the "system" in 1947.
3. As for the US, yes we have the largest incarcerated population per capita on Earth. With the exception of whatever the CIA is playing around with, all of them were presumed innocent until found guilty and stood trial in front of a judge and jury before being convicted and sentenced for their crime.
4. I have no idea what that other posters grandparents experienced. I was just trying to illustrate the point
1. Firstly, the very word "HOLODOmor" suggests that it was concocted by a person who did not speak Russian and thus did not know that "holod" means "COLD". Fanime would be "GOLOD" -- "GOLODOmor".
Secondly, your "Ukrainian diaspora" which consists mainly of those who run to US and Canada from Western parts of Ukraine forgets to mention one interesting fact: at the time of promoted by them "Holodomor" West Ukraine was divided between Romania and Poland and had nothing to do with the USSR or Stalin.
Thirdly, famine affected many parts of the USSR, not just Ukraine; and not all regions of Ukraine suffered from famine.
And finally: If Stalin was responsible for the famine in the USSR, then who was responsible for famine in Romania, Germany, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland and the USA?
Oh, and the book does not DENY the famine, it only points out to the source of the bulls*it surrounding it. You need to learn to read.
2. Why don't you find out? Contact Russia's archives, and find out.
3. And in the USSR accused were presumed innocent until found guilty and stood trial in front of a judge and jury before being convicted and sentenced for their crime. Well?
4. And your "illustration" was neither here nor there. If they were punished, I want to know for what crime and what was the sentence. And I am not interested in speculative "illustrations".
That the credible testimony of scholars like Boris Pasternak, Andrei Sakharov, Vasily Grossman, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, et al is denied,
These are FICTION WRITERS!!!!!!!!!
And Alexander Solzhenitsyn even made a point of stating that he used NO DOCUMENTS in his "Archipelag GULAG"! It is written in his forword to the novel!
No wonder, Westerners in general and Americans in particular have such perverted understanding of reality: you learn about the world by reading fiction and watching Hollywood.
And now, please, tell us WHAT was the OFFICIAL reason to sent the family of your grandad to "Siberia"?
Where exactly in "Siberia" were they settled?
Are you a russian?
My grandparents along with their 10 children (oldest 16 youngest 2) were given one hour to pack whatever they could (they lived in Rzeszow in POLAND) and along with THOUSANDS of other people from that area were shipped in CATTLE cars to somewhere in SIBERIA. Again, they were not criminals - unless being Polish counted as a criminal act. I do not know were .... there is no one to ask - My grandfather, grandmother are dead. My mother died over thirty years ago, my father over 40 years ago.
I really think the russians wanted to save them from the germans. (SARCASM - in case you don't get it)
Please don't make any further comments or ask questions - I will not be answering.
Last edited by ceg0720; 07-02-2012 at 06:13 PM..
Reason: Didn't want to include my grandparents names
Meaning that according to your propaganda there are no laws in Russia?
Meaning that hypothetically speaking, there are laws in Russia. However in reality Russia often lives not by law, but by the*implied understanding,* meaning "I'm a master you are a fool, you are a master I'm a fool." Russia always lived this way, she still does.
Quote:
Just how stoopid a person should be to even repeat this kind of tripe?!
Stupid is what stupid does. So I guess not more stoopid than you are.
Quote:
Btw, do you even know that Russia was only one of 15 republics of the Soviet Union?
Why, do you think that you are the one and only who lived in the Soviet Union? How presumptuous of you.
Both of my grandfathers came to Moscow from different republics back in 30ies of previous century.
I do not exclude possibility as well that you might be a Russian born and raised somewhere in Alma-Ata for example.
Were there LAWS under Stalin that required death sentence for certain crimes?Of course, there were!
No, that's not what we are talking about; that means that when you pack people of different ages, old and young, in the train and drop them off in the middle of nowhere, like Siberia or Kazahstan with an order to build a camp for a example, people have tendency to die in droves because of exposure, inadequate medical help ( if any) and inadequate food ( if any.) Or if you take away anything that peasants have ( be that food or wheat, rye - I am talking about prodrazverstka for example,) the peasants have tendency to die along with their families from hunger. And if they dare to resist their destiny ( take note of that,) they are accused as "kulaks," enemy of people - whatever, and still sentenced to die.
Things like that, which are historical fact, so what kind of propaganda you are trying to use here - I have no idea. Because good ole Soviet propaganda is sooooo yesterday.
My grandparents along with their 10 children (oldest 16 youngest 2) were given one hour to pack whatever they could (they lived in Rzeszow in POLAND) and along with THOUSANDS of other people from that area were shipped in CATTLE cars to somewhere in SIBERIA. Again, they were not criminals - unless being Polish counted as a criminal act. I do not know were .... there is no one to ask - My grandfather, grandmother are dead. My mother died over thirty years ago, my father over 40 years ago.
I really think the russians wanted to save them from the germans. (SARCASM - in case you don't get it)
Please don't make any further comments or ask questions - I will not be answering.
Don't give me your sob-story!
"CATTLE" cars are called GOODS cars; many of them were ADOPTED to carry large numbers of people: military units, brigades of builders and convicts.
If your grandad was CONVICTED his crime was clearly written down. What was his crime?! And don't give me "his crime was being Polish" -- Dzerghinsky, Malinovsky, Rokosovsky were also Polish, do you need me to remind you what positions they held in the governing structure of the Soviet Union?
It looks like your grandad was from Western Ukraine (what Poles still call "Kresy"). In which case, let me enlighten you as to what "innocent Poles" were up to in those parts:
Poles were responsible for
1) torture and death of 80 000 Soviet POW in Polish concentration camps; torture and death of Galitchian and Belorussian peasants in Polish concentration camps;In 1921 Chief Medical Officer of French military mission to Poland, Major of Medical Service Gauthier noted that in Polish concentration camps for Soviet POW and local peasants 50 to 70 people were dying DAILY.
In a concentration camp at Stshalkovo 12 000 died during winter of 1920-1921. According to Gauthier, in Stshalkovo at night POW were made to crap into the pots from which they were requied to eat during the day.
According to the International Red Cross Committee and Stephanie Sempolovskaya around 1600 to 2000 people were dying every month in a concentration camp at Tuchola.
Representative of the Polish Red Cross Natalie Kreutz-Velezhinskaya in her report on the visit to the camp in Tuchola in December 1920 noted that the death toll is 40%.
In a concentration camp at Berezie Kartuskiej 1934–1939 Polish officers were amusing themselves by constructing a road of sharp stones along which the inmates -- Soviet POW and Galitchian peasants were made to crawl until their flesh was stripped off their bones...;
2) mass murders of starving Galitchian peasants during the famine of 1932-1933; Polish government was using death squads against starving Galitchians;
3) and mistreatment of the locals by Polish gentry, small land-owners and businessmen.
Your relative was one of them. If he was found guilty (and many Poles were REPORTED BY THE LOCALS), he was punished accordingly. His family was rightly moved to a SETTLEMENT! What did you expect, they will be given palatial accomodation and some slaves for all their conduct on the occupied by Poland territories?!
Poles love whining, yet don't like talking of their little misdeeds.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
