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I certainly agree that what's referred to as cancel culture manifests itself on all sides of the political aisle and ( more relevantly ) I also agree that private organizations ( like private companies engaged in economic activity ) should retain the right to hire and fire their employees at their discretion within the boundaries of already existing employment law .
That said the question of whether or not they should fire employees based on them making offensive statements in their free time is another one entirely , one which deserves separate examining since it's of an ( IMHO ) essentially moral nature .
My two cents is absolutely not , for the simple reasons of it being ( in my view ) immoral to try and exercise authority over a person in a situation where such authority is unwarranted ( i.e. your company should only have power over you when you're on clock ) , not to mention that such activity does indeed indirectly stifle free speech due to being being afraid of speaking their mind for fear of losing their livelihood .
After all going to prison in a society as ours where ( unlike in totalitarian regimes ) torture and other forms of deprivation aren't at all necessarily standard practice , is in a sense much better than losing your job since you can at least count on being fed and having a roof over your head .
Whereas there is obviously no such guarantee in the case of losing your job , particularly if it's over sensitive issues like the ones we're seeing today , what with the possibility of being subject to a virtual blacklist as a result of being recorded making offensive statements .
People naturally have every right to be offended at whatever strikes them as offensive , but having someone lose their livelihood over it is going too far IMHO .
That said the question of whether or not they should fire employees based on them making offensive statements in their free time is another one entirely , one which deserves separate examining since it's of an ( IMHO ) essentially moral nature .
Huh? Moral nature? Huh? These decisions by companies are done for 100% business reasons. It has NOTHING to do with morality.
Huh? Moral nature? Huh? These decisions by companies are done for 100% business reasons. It has NOTHING to do with morality.
I'm referring to the nature of the topic itself , as opposed to merely the reasoning behind why companies fire people for such reasons .
FWIW even that has a lot to do with morality , since the backlash they fear is very much rooted in morality , as aspect of the subject that I haven't ( and may not for fear of switching the subject ) delved into .
Last edited by Lionel Fauquier; 10-07-2020 at 02:45 PM..
I'm referring to the nature of the topic itself , as opposed to merely the reasoning behind why companies fire people for such reasons .
FWIW even that has a lot to do with morality , since the backlash they fear is very much rooted in morality , as aspect of the subject that I haven't ( and may not for fear of switching the subject ) delved into .
Why shouldn't someone potentially lose their job over any belief that could damage their employer?
If you were a Trump supporter and the lawn guy came to work wearing a bunch of "dump Trump, pro Biden" t-shirts with various campaign signs taped to their truck sitting in your driveway, are you going to keep employing that particular lawn guy?
You are conflating two separate issues. People are allowed their own moral beliefs. However, people are also allowed a reaction upon hearing those beliefs. Firing is just one reaction.
Last edited by charlygal; 10-07-2020 at 03:05 PM..
Why shouldn't someone potentially lose their job over any belief that could damage their employer?
If you were a Trump supporter and the lawn guy came to work wearing a bunch of "dump Trump, pro Biden" t-shirts with various campaign signs taped to their truck sitting in your driveway, are you going to keep employing that particular lawn guy?
You are conflating two separate issues. People are allowed their own moral beliefs. However, people are also allowed a reaction upon hearing those beliefs. Firing is just one reaction.
The fact that employers face backlash over employing people whose beliefs offend others is the other side of the equation I haven't touched on , and for now won't , but suffice to say that I'm not merely blaming employers when it comes to this issue .
To answer your question though , I believe firing someone as a result of people getting offended due to statements expressed by them while they aren't at work , is unjust because ( for starters ) it involves an employer passing judgement over someone in a situation where they shouldn't have any sort of authority ( I.E. bosses shouldn't be able to effectively tell you what to do when you're off the clock IMO ) and more importantly because it's an extreme form of punishment that in no way fits this supposed crime .
I mean sure I get it that people can and do get offended , but there are much less extreme ways of getting back at someone for offending you .
Causing them to ( in many cases ) draw unemployment or ( in some cases ) even become homeless is just over the top and uncalled for IMHO .
FWIW I also believe that many people ( on all sides of the political aisle ) are hypocritical in their approach since they would very likely not at all like to be on the other end of the stick , if they were to get fired as a result of ( say ) engaging in a spirited diatribe against those they disagree with .
After all it's not just bona fide Neo Nazis or Stalinists who have been fired over offending people and what with today's political climate it's not at all unlikely that we'll be seeing more and more average people , including those who advocate for this sort of thing , losing their livelihood over hurt feelings and fragile egos .
A thing which is far removed from justice IMHO .
Last edited by Lionel Fauquier; 10-07-2020 at 03:39 PM..
The fact that employers face backlash over employing people whose beliefs offend others is the other side of the equation I haven't touched on , and for now won't , but suffice to say that I'm not merely blaming employers when it comes to this issue .
To answer your question though , I believe firing someone as a result of people getting offended due to statements expressed by them while they aren't at work , is unjust because ( for starters ) it involves an employer passing judgement over someone in a situation where they shouldn't have any sort of authority ( I.E. bosses shouldn't be able to effectively tell you what to do when you're off the clock IMO ) and more importantly because it's an extreme form of punishment that in no way fits this supposed crime .
I mean sure I get it that people can and do get offended , but there are much less extreme ways of getting back at someone for offending you .
Causing them to ( in many cases ) draw unemployment or ( in some cases ) even become homeless is just over the top and uncalled for IMHO .
FWIW I also believe that many people ( on all sides of the political aisle ) are hypocritical in their approach since they would very likely not at all like to be on the other end of the stick , if they were to get fired as a result of ( say ) engaging in a spirited diatribe against those they disagree with .
After all it's not just bona fide Neo Nazis or Stalinists who have been fired over offending people and what with today's political climate it's not at all unlikely that we'll be seeing more and more average people , including those who advocate for this sort of thing , losing their livelihood over hurt feelings and fragile egos .
A thing which is far removed from justice IMHO .
I'm puzzled as to why you can't see the obvious. It's bad for business when you have employees that turn off customers. The reasons why don't matter. In the case of a racist or a nazi, those people cause customers to not patronize a business.
Do you really believe a business owner should keep these employees and lose revenue? What if they have to close shop? Was keeping that employee worth it? Plus, what about the feelings of coworkers? Is an employer going to believe they will have a healthy workplace with open avowed racists or sexists in the workplace?
As a general life lesson, isn't it true that all of our actions have consequences? Why would this be any different?
I'm puzzled as to why you can't see the obvious. It's bad for business when you have employees that turn off customers. The reasons why don't matter. In the case of a racist or a nazi, those people cause customers to not patronize a business.
Do you really believe a business owner should keep these employees and lose revenue? What if they have to close shop? Was keeping that employee worth it? Plus, what about the feelings of coworkers? Is an employer going to believe they will have a healthy workplace with open avowed racists or sexists in the workplace?
As a general life lesson, isn't it true that all of our actions have consequences? Why would this be any different?
You most certainly are correct that all actions have consequences , however the consequences in question right now are of a very much socially defined moral nature .
That is ( to use an example ) if someone in this country had spoken out against there being no appropriate safety measures in their workplaces 100 years ago , then said person could very well have been fired and their employer could very well have used the line of " Bolshevik agitators are bad for business " to justify said firing .
Would it have made good business sense ? Probably so since a wide swath of the public did look down on people who complained about such things at the time .
Would it have been just ? I ( along with a wide swath of present day society ) think not .
In short this debate we're having very much reflects that sort of social polarization , putting it far beyond the realm of simply letting business owners do what they think is good for business .
Furthermore ( as you've already alluded to ) many people these days can get very much offended over other people being a Trump supporter or a Biden supporter , making the scenario of someone being fired over showing support for a bona fide presidential candidate not at all unlikely .
Is that a scenario that should occur in a society that claims to be free and democratic ? I ( again ) think not at all .
To go further , allowing things like this to happen only results in people fearing to voice their opinions and de facto leads to suppression of free speech , albeit by different means compared to other societies .
I haven't even delved into how silly it is for people to care what views the person who services their needs as customers at a particular business holds , but suffice to say that as long as nobody offends you in person then you really shouldn't care what views they hold and complaining to their employer in hopes of getting them fired is ( IMHO ) very distasteful to say the least .
In closing I'd like to state that while firing someone for saying or doing something deemed offensive at work is all fine and dandy , the authority of an employer should not extend beyond the boundaries of the workplace and that this sort of ( in my view ) unjust practice does lead to the erosion of the right to free speech in this society , since losing your livelihood can very well be worse than going to prison in this country .
All that said I really have no more to add to this discussion and I'll consequently be bowing out now .
Thank you for debating with me !
Last edited by Lionel Fauquier; 10-08-2020 at 08:28 AM..
I'm puzzled as to why you can't see the obvious. It's bad for business when you have employees that turn off customers. The reasons why don't matter. In the case of a racist or a nazi, those people cause customers to not patronize a business.
Do you really believe a business owner should keep these employees and lose revenue? What if they have to close shop? Was keeping that employee worth it? Plus, what about the feelings of coworkers? Is an employer going to believe they will have a healthy workplace with open avowed racists or sexists in the workplace?
As a general life lesson, isn't it true that all of our actions have consequences? Why would this be any different?
By your argument, which is the right to terminate an employee because of the beliefs they espouse if this belief turns off customers, if a person has a business in a conservative area and they have an employee who publicly advocates for Democratic Party policies (shirts,
facebook posts, etc) ...they can justly fire them!
I can also apply your argument to Christian Bakery Shops; What if an LGBT couple offends the patrons there who believe their marriage is a sin? "Do you really believe a business owner should keep these employees, (serve these couples) and lose revenue?"- Flipping your question back to you.
And I didn't change your argument one bit, I just applied it to people on the progressive side. If doesn't hold water here, why does it do so the way you argued it before?
By your argument, which is the right to terminate an employee because of the beliefs they espouse if this belief turns off customers, if a person has a business in a conservative area and they have an employee who publicly advocates for Democratic Party policies (shirts,
facebook posts, etc) ...they can justly fire them!
I can also apply your argument to Christian Bakery Shops; What if an LGBT couple offends the patrons there who believe their marriage is a sin? "Do you really believe a business owner should keep these employees, (serve these couples) and lose revenue?"- Flipping your question back to you.
And I didn't change your argument one bit, I just applied it to people on the progressive side. If doesn't hold water here, why does it do so the way you argued it before?
I think that racists and nazis (those who agitate for the suppression and extermination of "inferior peoples") are in a somewhat different class from your proffered examples. Although, admittedly, America's current hostile environment tends to pit people of different political leanings against each other, confusing them with the genuine monsters who should be the target of everyone's focus.
When asked to give a reason for firing an employee for any and every situation, (in the private sector), the standard response should be, "because it's in the best interests of the business" period.
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