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I'd rather see these schools run like businesses and actually compete with one another on education. Instead they're all pretty much bloated bureaucracies with too many tenured professors working 25hrs a week for 7months a year, huge administration budgets and facilities that have nothing to do with actually educating.
I'd rather see these schools run like businesses and actually compete with one another on education. Instead they're all pretty much bloated bureaucracies with too many tenured professors working 25hrs a week for 7months a year, huge administration budgets and facilities that have nothing to do with actually educating.
I don't think you're in touch with the actual university scene. There is a great deal of competition among universities, and it would be quite difficult to attract quality faculty if a university refuses to offer tenure-track positions. I don't know of any professors who work 25 hours per week for 7 months per year, either.
The United States offers the best university-level institutions in the world. There is no doubt about that. Some of them are expensive, yes, but the education quality is stellar.
I think the answers are probably right. There are reasons why people go to better universities and it has little to do with money. I was just thinking if a public school was free maybe it would turn some that way.
It's possible that the effect would be negligible. Because the students who would have the most need of a free higher education would be the very ones that would qualify for a full scholarship from the big name private universities. They offer scholarships, part-time jobs on campus and other aid that doesn't involve loans, to the most needy students. Who would benefit would be low-income students whose grades wouldn't qualify them for scholarships, and middle-class students who wouldn't qualify for a full package of financial aid at private or today's public universities.
What happens when high school kids drop out? Do the taxpayers eat the tuition, or do the students pay it back?
It seems to me that both of the following are true:
1. Most high school graduates now either go to college or want to go to college.
2. There are broad societal benefits to having a more educated populace.
Both of the above points are good reasons to at least desire some sort of public college education that is either free or extremely affordable. We already have free public education through high school, and that has been unquestionably successful on the whole. A lot of tax dollars go to paying for our current public education system, but it is the sort of thing that benefits almost everyone. If we didn't have public education, families would either need to pay for education themselves or forgo education. The same dynamic would seem to extend to college education. Yes, it will be expensive, but it will eliminate a major expense for many people and produce effects that benefit all of society.
No one is arguing the investment, however primary schools are designed to have a BASICALLY educated person to be FUNCTIONAL and therefore, less risk.....secondary schools can cost the equivalent, or more of what was expended on a child achieving a high school diploma. At that point, society has in general met it's obligation to take one from the cave to at least FUNCTIONING in society (i.e. reading, writing, and arithmetic at a BASIC level).....secondary would be a luxury.....
This is not to say it's not a good investment, however, based on your plan, you would treat secondary like primary and the student would have no skin in the game. NOT good. Frankly, I believe it should be very much like it was 30 years ago....want to go to college? Save up, work summers, or take loans. Period. Some were able to get some grants but, it was pretty much assumed that loans were in order for the majority.....
Low interest loans are fine. However, you are now taking borrowed money off the US taxpayer. If you fail, you pay it back...if you succeed you pay it back. I would treat it as the IRS treats it. You WILL pay and you WILL pay interest....it's called responsibility for those who borrowed as well as accountability TO those who loaned it?
It's not asking too much for some kid to pay back the 40K he/she borrowed to get a degree with low, low interest. Is it? Is that really that hard to comprehend? Is that really "unfair".....the womb to tomb societal benefits SOUNDS nice but, in the end, you can't afford it.
Those with the aptitude, attitude and desire WILL succeed in college. Those who don't, won't? This IS the free enterprise system and that means there WILL be some winners and there WILL be some losers. If one finds themselves on the losing side, quit complaining and DO something about. The only group bigger than those who don't want to go is those that want you to pay for them because they didn't go? For the record, I'm a college drop out and did fine. And get this, you nor anyone in society owes me a red cent. Any failures I incurred are MY fault, not yours.
Stand up, buck up, fall in line. Looking for others to make you dinner is a losing strategy in the free enterprise system. Want that? Move, like many Middle Eastern immigrants. Escape the capitalist "oppression" that seems so overwhelming to some and is the bane to their existence.
Have some chimichangas, LEAVE if it pains you that much. Otherwise, **** and get to work. There are no free lunches. Learn that, absorb that, and realize your professors, for the most part were wrong. While they taught so many to be a CEO, the REAL world teaches you that only one guy/gal GETS that job and they usually have more pedigree, brains and connections than those that don't.
I don't think you're in touch with the actual university scene. There is a great deal of competition among universities, and it would be quite difficult to attract quality faculty if a university refuses to offer tenure-track positions. I don't know of any professors who work 25 hours per week for 7 months per year, either.
The United States offers the best university-level institutions in the world. There is no doubt about that. Some of them are expensive, yes, but the education quality is stellar.
The admin budgets are huge at many schools. Dorms, fitness centers, athletics, etc
You're really telling me the free market value of a Psych 101 class is 4,500 bucks at a private school? In a free market, you use video-conferencing software and that would be like 200 bucks a student.
Why would colleges not expand their capacities if they have a lot of new customers with guaranteed tuition?
The cost to expand a campus is huge. More staff, real estate, buildings, operational costs, etc...
Unless the university charges a lot, similar to private universities, tuition doesn't cover expansion.
A public university in Texas will cost between $5000-$12,000 in tuition per year. Contrast that to private universities tuition. There is no way the federal government is going to pay $30,000+ per student, which is what a profit driven college would probably cost. The public universities often turn students away, because there is no room at the inn.
No one is arguing the investment, however primary schools are designed to have a BASICALLY educated person to be FUNCTIONAL and therefore, less risk.....secondary schools can cost the equivalent, or more of what was expended on a child achieving a high school diploma. At that point, society has in general met it's obligation to take one from the cave to at least FUNCTIONING in society (i.e. reading, writing, and arithmetic at a BASIC level).....secondary would be a luxury.....
Why are you of the opinion that society should only do the minimum? I don't think there is an "obligation" here on the part of society -- including secondary education ("secondary" means high school). The more relevant point is that a more educated populace is good for the country. Considering most people want to pursue a college degree, it would be a program that would be of great public interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
This is not to say it's not a good investment, however, based on your plan, you would treat secondary like primary and the student would have no skin in the game. NOT good. Frankly, I believe it should be very much like it was 30 years ago....want to go to college? Save up, work summers, or take loans. Period. Some were able to get some grants but, it was pretty much assumed that loans were in order for the majority.....
Thirty years ago, far fewer people graduated from college. That would be a terrible result. We should want there to be more educated people, not fewer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
Low interest loans are fine. However, you are now taking borrowed money off the US taxpayer. If you fail, you pay it back...if you succeed you pay it back. I would treat it as the IRS treats it. You WILL pay and you WILL pay interest....it's called responsibility for those who borrowed as well as accountability TO those who loaned it?
It's not asking too much for some kid to pay back the 40K he/she borrowed to get a degree with low, low interest. Is it? Is that really that hard to comprehend? Is that really "unfair".....the womb to tomb societal benefits SOUNDS nice but, in the end, you can't afford it.
There's a lot going on here. First, no, it's not hard to comprehend. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. The topic we're discussing here is whether socializing post-secondary education would be a good thing. All of the arguments you're making here could also be made for secondary education. However, as I've pointed out, there are several good reasons to make college as accessible as possible.
You seem to take it as a given that "I" can't afford socialized college. I assume you mean the US can't afford it, but I'm not sure this is true. Taxes would certainly go up, but many people would save a lot of money on a major expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
Those with the aptitude, attitude and desire WILL succeed in college. Those who don't, won't? This IS the free enterprise system and that means there WILL be some winners and there WILL be some losers. If one finds themselves on the losing side, quit complaining and DO something about. The only group bigger than those who don't want to go is those that want you to pay for them because they didn't go? For the record, I'm a college drop out and did fine. And get this, you nor anyone in society owes me a red cent. Any failures I incurred are MY fault, not yours.
No, socialism is not a free enterprise system. The topic we're debating is whether we should socialize college.
You are simply throwing out standard conservative talking points regarding free enterprise. You aren't actually putting up an argument about socialized college. We've already seen that socialized secondary education works well. College is quickly becoming as important to success as a high school diploma was 30 years ago. There are multiple good reasons to consider this idea, and I've given some of them here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
Stand up, buck up, fall in line. Looking for others to make you dinner is a losing strategy in the free enterprise system. Want that? Move, like many Middle Eastern immigrants. Escape the capitalist "oppression" that seems so overwhelming to some and is the bane to their existence.
Have some chimichangas, LEAVE if it pains you that much. Otherwise, **** and get to work. There are no free lunches. Learn that, absorb that, and realize your professors, for the most part were wrong. While they taught so many to be a CEO, the REAL world teaches you that only one guy/gal GETS that job and they usually have more pedigree, brains and connections than those that don't.
Welcome to the rat race, start jogging....
Is this personally addressed to me? You have no idea what I do for a living or what my circumstance is. More importantly, what does any of this have to do with the question of socialized college?
You are showing a very ignorant worldview here. "Leave if you don't like it" is a terrible argument against just about everything. Also, there are a lot of successful people in jobs that require college degrees -- not just CEOs. There is no doubt that a college degree increases one's prospective lifetime income, not to mention their critical thinking skills and value as a voting citizen.
Lay off the talking points and actually engage the real issues.
If elected President, one of the things Senator Sanders would like to do is have government paid tuition for all public universities and colleges. I do not want to debate the idea or the costs...
The question I have is what would become of the private universities and colleges- Ivy League schools like Yale, Harvard... Religious private universities and colleges that are around the country... medical universities.... and others.
It would seem to me that their enrollments would drop appreciably. With a large drop in revenue, could they not only stay afloat but continue to provide the level of education they currently enjoy?
Is it possible it would destroy the private education industry in this country?
Would this be a good thing when trying to train people to be the best and the brightest?
So you have two applicants. One is a top Harvard grad the other graduated from School of Law in Costa Mesa Ca. Which do you want to hire. I think the whole plan is idiotic.
You'll just have a crapload of masters/bachelors degrees so you'll just have a over abundance of applicants. Who can't get work. But they got a degree. Which means you'll have a ton of burger flippers with degrees
I seriously doubt congress would even entertain free college if Bernie made it all the way to president. I like him and believe him to be truthful, but seriously doubt he would get any of his 'wants' if he were elected.
I suspect not a lot would change with Free college. Rich kids will still go to the private schools and poor kids will still go to city or state colleges. The HS drop outs would still NOT go to college and those kids who would rather earn a living now will just drop out and work instead.
Plenty of kids will pursue liberal arts, english, and psychology and still not find work after school just like today but many other kids will find jobs and be able to use their earnings to live and buy houses instead of paying back loans.
It would be a tax hike but in the long run, it would help the economy by increased spending and earlier housing purchases. This could be a good thing because the baby boomers will start downsizing in roughly 10 years. Without buyers for their homes, there could be another bubble.
I seriously doubt congress would even entertain free college if Bernie made it all the way to president. I like him and believe him to be truthful, but seriously doubt he would get any of his 'wants' if he were elected.
I suspect not a lot would change with Free college. Rich kids will still go to the private schools and poor kids will still go to city or state colleges. The HS drop outs would still NOT go to college and those kids who would rather earn a living now will just drop out and work instead.
Plenty of kids will pursue liberal arts, english, and psychology and still not find work after school just like today but many other kids will find jobs and be able to use their earnings to live and buy houses instead of paying back loans.
It would be a tax hike but in the long run, it would help the economy by increased spending and earlier housing purchases. This could be a good thing because the baby boomers will start downsizing in roughly 10 years. Without buyers for their homes, there could be another bubble.
If we dont have people like Bernie, nothing will change for the betterment of the people. FDR also had lots of goals and visions, not everything was met, but he was a fighter and its because of people like that that we have a more civilized country today.
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