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I think (or hope) what people mean when they insist on banning abortion, is not making it a crime per se, but simply making it unavailable, and charging any back alley providers with malpractice.
But all in all, if a woman wants to take some herbs or use a hanger, that's her risk and her problem.
Once you understand the science of natal development, you'll realize that a tiny fetus, while it looks like a 'person' fairly early, has nothing that would make it a 'person.' No personality, no thoughts, no emotions, etc; none of those are present until the higher cortex develops, starting in the 3rd trimester - and it continues to develop after birth. Prior to that development, the fetus is controlled by the primal brain stem; it really is just a developing human organism, despite how much it "looks" like a miniature "baby."
The antichoicers have relied almost exclusively on triggering emotions like yours: the human response to the visuals of a tiny organism and how it looks - they count on people's lack of scientific and biological knowledge. Apparently they're pretty successful; lots of people can't be bothered with facts, let alone doing their own research; they are perfectly happy to feel an emotional response and just run with it - and even base decisions and opinions on that. You're one of them. They aren't 'little people' - they are potential people, if left to develop. There's a huge difference. That you feel you have some right - because you had an emotion - to make decisions about other people and their lives is ...well, it's frankly self-centered and utterly self-serving.
I do understand the science of natal development, having learned it in med school.
I think it's convenient to decide what your definition of 'human being' is and when it occurs.
Now it's thoughts and emotions? Hell, a newborn doesn't really have any of those in any measurable way.
What? You think it does because it cries? Don't let those silly babies play on your emotions.
I don't care about mouth-breathing anti-choicers. I would much rather focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies than making up arbitrary decisions (that always somehow conveniently suit the agenda) on when life starts, when a person is a person, etc.
And when the F did I say I think I have a right to make a decision about anything? You're the one making self-serving decisions and comments. I even said repeatedly on this thread that my answers had nothing to do with my actual stance on abortion.
Just be aware that not everyone who is not into abortion on demand as a form of birth control is so because they are religious.
They support criminal penalties, and I've heard plenty who said the death penalty was not too much. There are plenty of states now that have 'sunset laws' sitting on the books, waiting for Roe v Wade to fall; they implement prison for providers, prison for women. We've had those associated with the GOP even mention the death penalty, in conversations on abortion.
A while back, NH had some lunatic running for county sheriff who loudly and repeatedly stated in interviews that he didn't think 'deadly force' was inappropriate to stop a woman intent on an abortion. Of course, this idiot never explained how killing the woman wouldn't kill the fetus - but I don't think rationality was a strong suit in that one.
Sadly, I've seen, heard and talked to too many like him.
Priests For Life, heavily at the forefront of the antichoice movement since the 80's, said flatly that El Salvadore was their 'beacon of hope' model for the US. It was the Vatican who got those El Salvadorian policies in place to begin with.
Any medical doctor will tell you that the best of modern science cannot usually determine what causes a miscarriage - and women have already been arrested for such, right here in the US, in Republican states.
It's horrific that a modern nation is being subjected to it's own, home-grown Fetus Taliban.
Oh, and make no mistake - and it's becoming clear now with the GOP; they aren't just after abortion; they're also after ALL birth control.
I have read a lot about women in El Salvador and just the thought if that is beyond sickening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scagaith
How about if we stay out of other people's business, deeply personal decisions, reproductive choices -and let them and/or family take care of their own business? Who are you, or anyone else, to decide any of that, let alone 'punishment?'
The fact that religion has stoked this return to the Dark Ages is sickening. Abortion was never an issue; it was even legal in old England and the Colonies here, until some religious moonbats, purely because of their own personal beliefs, decided they wanted to make everyone else live as only *they* saw fit, in the latter 1800's. Not very different from exactly what ISIL is doing, and in fact the antichoice crowd has murdered a dozen doctors and people so far, in their "all life is sacred" zealotry. They've bombed, thrown acid in people's faces, maimed, crippled and committed thousands of acts of terrorism, to get their way. Tell me how they are any different from ISIL.
My body and reproduction is my business alone. Abortion cannot be stopped; there are even herbs that are abortificants. Are you going to ban the very trees, plants and grasses, too? Lock all females up all their lives? How far are you willing to go to impose your beliefs on someone elses life?
Rhetorical questions.
It amazes me that Christians can't see how the actions of their extremists mirror those of ISIL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scagaith
Once you understand the science of natal development, you'll realize that a tiny fetus, while it looks like a 'person' fairly early, has nothing that would make it a 'person.' No personality, no thoughts, no emotions, etc; none of those are present until the higher cortex develops, starting in the 3rd trimester - and it continues to develop after birth. Prior to that development, the fetus is controlled by the primal brain stem; it really is just a developing human organism, despite how much it "looks" like a miniature "baby."
The antichoicers have relied almost exclusively on triggering emotions like yours: the human response to the visuals of a tiny organism and how it looks - they count on people's lack of scientific and biological knowledge. Apparently they're pretty successful; lots of people can't be bothered with facts, let alone doing their own research; they are perfectly happy to feel an emotional response and just run with it - and even base decisions and opinions on that. You're one of them. They aren't 'little people' - they are potential people, if left to develop. There's a huge difference.
Yes, exactly. I have been pro choice for as long as I can remember, but I started to question my belief, because living in conservative land all my life, I am inundated with "abortion is murder" talk constantly, so I wanted to know the TRUTH. I learned everything I could about fetal development, the procedure itself, the statistics, what it's like in other countries with strict laws or very lax laws, I studied the Biblical side very thoroughly and after pouring through mountains of research (and I'm still learning) there is nothing wrong with or immoral about having an abortion. There just isn't. That doesn't mean I like the idea of women having abortions or WANT anyone to have one, but to make them illegal or even highly restricted is more damaging to women and society then allowing them and making them easily accessible.
I do understand the science of natal development, having learned it in med school.
That's a bit of a surprise, considering you also posted this:
Quote:
"Now it's thoughts and emotions? Hell, a newborn doesn't really have any of those in any measurable way.
..when in fact the differences in measurable brain activity in early v. later development should be something someone who "learned it in med school" should be expected to know.
Quote:
I think it's convenient to decide what your definition of 'human being' is and when it occurs.
I don't believe I used the term 'human being.'
Quote:
I don't care about mouth-breathing anti-choicers. I would much rather focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies than making up arbitrary decisions (that always somehow conveniently suit the agenda) on when life starts, when a person is a person, etc.
Well, you certainly seemed to be grappling, rather significantly, with concepts of punishment and how they should be determined.
Quote:
Just be aware that not everyone who is not into abortion on demand as a form of birth control is so because they are religious.
Doesn't matter; they are helping the religious-originated and religiously driven antichoice movement and it's extreme goals.
Yes, exactly. I have been pro choice for as long as I can remember, but I started to question my belief, because living in conservative land all my life, I am inundated with "abortion is murder" talk constantly, so I wanted to know the TRUTH. I learned everything I could about fetal development, the procedure itself, the statistics, what it's like in other countries with strict laws or very lax laws, I studied the Biblical side very thoroughly and after pouring through mountains of research (and I'm still learning) there is nothing wrong with or immoral about having an abortion. There just isn't. That doesn't mean I like the idea of women having abortions or WANT anyone to have one, but to make them illegal or even highly restricted is more damaging to women and society then allowing them and making them easily accessible.
Thank you for researching for yourself! Extra kudos for being in 'conservative land' and still determining that you wanted more info!
I don't have any problem at all with early abortion. Zero. I don't care why any female of child-bearing age wants/needs it; it's her private decision, for her reasons. As far as I'm concerned, it should be available, easy to access, and affordable. If a female wants one, she should get one. That's it. It just isn't a big deal. This whole apologetic position that prochoicers have allowed themselves to be pushed into - because they allowed the antichoicers to control the dialogue for the last 30 years -, is ridiculous. I don't know a single woman who has ever regretted an early abortion, nor even thought it was a big deal. But - oh my, we aren't supposed to say that, now, are we? lol
Prevention is great, as is comprehensive sex ed, and birth control should also be easy to obtain and very affordable.
I think one of the worst things about the whole antichoice position, is how many of them actually are demanding that people who do not want to be parents, should be forced to be parents. In what fantasy land is this a good idea?
Of course, behind that kind of position is usually the 'parenthood as punishment for sex' mentality. *sigh*
So what happens in the case of rape or incest? An abortion is an abortion is an abortion. If we ban abortion, then we have to not allow abortion to save the mother's life or in case a 10 year old gets pregnant. If that happens and the mother dies or the ten year old dies, is anyone going to be liable?
Which reminds me, I heard if you have your baby in a Catholic hospital and it comes down to your life or the baby's, they'll let you die and save the baby. Can anyone confirm that?
And what happens when you have IVF? Does this mean a woman who has 10 eggs fertilized has to take home 10 babies?
You know, it occurs to me that banning abortion will make a lot more problems than we have now.
Don't you think you should start with a review of what the penalties actually were when abortion was illegal?
No, because I don't want abortion to be illegal in any sense so I don't care "how it used to be" or have any thoughts on punishment. I want to know what anti choicers *think* cause they sure have an a lot of opinions, but not many answers (as you can tell from lack of direct response to the OP). I believe that is because they don't think past the "abortion is murder" rhetoric and consider what exactly it would be like to live in a world where abortion is illegal (reality not fantasy) and who all would have to be punished (just the woman, her doctor, the nurse too, the father, anyone who drives her or has even indirect involvement, what if she is a minor?) and what those punishments in THEIR mind should be. That is why I asked.
Your premise is flawed and hypothetical, not relaistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow
If the Supreme Court were to find that a woman did not have a constitutional right to abortion and individual states moved to make it illegal, how should the crime be punished?
PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS DEGENERATE INTO A DISCUSSION OF WHETHER ABORTION SHOULD BE LEGALIZED OR NOT.
Would you support a prison term for the woman? The man who fathered the child? The provider?
If so, what length of term for each party?
If the woman or couple has other children at home, should punishment be less?
Should it be punishable by death?
It should be penalty free. The feds and states have no business legislating inside a woman's panties. It's a basic right to not have government intruding into the most personal of circumstances.
Only the most insecure of control freaks could possibly want it otherwise.
How about if we stay out of other people's business, deeply personal decisions, reproductive choices -and let them and/or family take care of their own business? Who are you, or anyone else, to decide any of that, let alone 'punishment?'
The fact that religion has stoked this return to the Dark Ages is sickening. Abortion was never an issue; it was even legal in old England and the Colonies here, until some religious moonbats, purely because of their own personal beliefs, decided they wanted to make everyone else live as only *they* saw fit, in the latter 1800's. Not very different from exactly what ISIL is doing, and in fact the antichoice crowd has murdered a dozen doctors and people so far, in their "all life is sacred" zealotry. They've bombed, thrown acid in people's faces, maimed, crippled and committed thousands of acts of terrorism, to get their way. Tell me how they are any different from ISIL.
My body and reproduction is my business alone. Abortion cannot be stopped; there are even herbs that are abortificants. Are you going to ban the very trees, plants and grasses, too? Lock all females up all their lives? How far are you willing to go to impose your beliefs on someone elses life?
Rhetorical questions.
Um... it was a real life situation in response to the hypothetical OP. I am pro-choice BTW. It's interesting that you feel so strongly about this but the topic wasn't if abortion should be legal. The topic is what punishment would there be if abortion were illegal. Chill...
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It amazes me that Christians can't see how the actions of their extremists mirror those of ISIL. 
Your premise is flawed and hypothetical, not relaistic
