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Also comparing this to Cleveland, while it's not much further west than Pittsburgh, the migration patterns are rather reversed with Midwestern cities being the top places where other people move in and out from. Even in Cleveland, the common state plates I saw were Indiana, Michigan and Illinois while here in Pittsburgh they tend to be Maryland, New York, and Virginia.
The only place in the Midwest outside of Ohio where people in Cleveland move to in any real numbers is Chicago. If anything, people from Cleveland move south more than anywhere else.
And being from the Cleveland area oringinally I can tell you that your obsevaion about the license plates is wrong. The most common plates I see around there from out of state are PA, NY, and MI (in that order). IL plates are not uncommon, but not nearly as common as those other states. Indiana plates are rare around Cleveland, and in fact I see more Ontario plates than Indiana plates aound there.
What big cultural differences do you notice between Buffalo and Erie and places like Chicago and Detroit.
[Ignoring the ones that comes from Chicago being a much bigger city]
I've never been to Buffalo, but I know a number of people from there. There's a guy on the Denver forum from Buffalo. He'd probably laugh anyone out of the room that expressed the idea of Buffalo being "midwestern". Funny thing is, mentioning Denver, every now and then a discussion ensues over there regarding whether Denver is a midwestern city! Buffalo is still New York. So, to answer you question, I can't tell you much about Buffalo. I've been to Erie a few times, and I know a few people from Erie as well. It's a MUCH smaller city, for one; 102,000 with a metro of 280,000. Culturally, Erie is still Pennsylvania. Students there who desire to go to a state college go to Pennsylvania schools. People pay their taxes to Pennsylvania, elect people to represent them in the Pennsylvania state legislature, etc. They're a part of PA even if they are in a far corner of the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton
Has anyone from Buffalo responded yet?
Regarding Pittsburgh, no one who from here thinks it's a Midwestern city. We have clear and strong links with DC, and to a lesser extent Baltimore and Philadelphia. We are getting a lot of NYC transplants who were priced out, but not many from Chicago.
But I think Buffalo does identify as Midwestern to some degree. I remember when I went to visit SUNY Buffalo when I was looking at colleges, when they were giving us a campus tour, the guides explained that Buffalo was "nothing like New York City" and "really a Midwestern city." '
Part of it, I think, is the different balance of power in the states. Philly is much larger than Pittsburgh, but it's not anywhere near the huge gulf between NYC and Buffalo. Pittsburgh's response to Philly disclaiming the region is to argue that we're an equal component of the state. Buffalo doing the same thing would be laughable, so instead they just shrug their shoulders and look westward.
See my response to nei's post, below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
From whatever reason, when we have these "midwestern debates", Pittsburgh comes up more than Buffalo.
That, and New York City and downstate NY in general gets a negative reputation among upstaters. The dominance of downstate NY of the state is resented, and the upstaters often feel they have little in common with downstate, so they'd rather say "we're midwestern" as a way of saying, "we're not like those from New York City". I meant someone who bicycled through upstate NY from New York City to Wisconsin. He thought upstate NY felt midwestern to him and not that different from Wisconsin. Perhaps he meant downstate NY felt more different from upstate NY than Wisconsin did from upstate NY? The hills, of course, let him know very clearly that upstate NY was not Wisconsin. When I started talking to him he implied he was from either his starting point or destination, I couldn't tell for sure but I could make a very good (and correct) guess based off of his complexion; his very light blond hair made him look very not from the NYC metro and closer to a northern Midwest stereotype.
About colleges, both Buffalo and Pittsburgh have state schools that help tie their cities culturally to other, more distant parts of the state. SUNY Buffalo definitely gets a lot of students from downstate NY, and from I what I've heard Pitt gets some students from eastern PA.
That is the case in Illinois, too, with Chicago viz the rest of the state. Same arguments. However, it's pretty much, "we're all Illinoisans". Downstaters seem to feel they're more the "real" Illinoisans than the city people. We walked where Lincoln walked. Chicago is very involved with, well, Chicago. However, a lot of students from Chicago go to the U of IL downstate.
First of all, Wisconsin is hillier than you apparently are aware. Most of southern Wisconsin is moderately hilly. It's not the Appalachians like some parts of upstate NY, but it's sort of like Albany. Wisconsin also has that "town" system that you see in upstate NY. I know they have it in LI as well, but it's played out a little differently there, as LI is more urban/suburban rather than rural/small town/small city. I'm surprised to see there are few light blonds in NYC. That's quite interesting!
I've never been to Buffalo, but I know a number of people from there. There's a guy on the Denver forum from Buffalo. He'd probably laugh anyone out of the room that expressed the idea of Buffalo being "midwestern". Funny thing is, mentioning Denver, every now and then a discussion ensues over there regarding whether Denver is a midwestern city! Buffalo is still New York. So, to answer you question, I can't tell you much about Buffalo. I've been to Erie a few times, and I know a few people from Erie as well. It's a MUCH smaller city, for one; 102,000 with a metro of 280,000. Culturally, Erie is still Pennsylvania. Students there who desire to go to a state college go to Pennsylvania schools. People pay their taxes to Pennsylvania, elect people to represent them in the Pennsylvania state legislature, etc. They're a part of PA even if they are in a far corner of the state.
Erie has been "Pittsburghized" to some degree due to the influence of Pittsburgh media and culture on the region. There has been a very recent accent shift of the city - it used to speak with a Interior North accent similar to Cleveland and Erie, and shifted to a Pittsburgh-like Midland dialect. It still has more "Midwestern" characteristics than elsewhere in Pennsylvania (certainly more than Pittsburgh), but it's not fully part of the Great Lakes cultural region anymore.
Buffalo is more Midwestern than either. That doesn't make it part of the Midwest really. But it does show more linguistic, architectural, and cultural similarities with Cleveland than anywhere else. Whether that makes Cleveland Northeastern, or Buffalo Midwestern, is in the eye of the beholder.
I think Pittsburgh would be arguably more Midwestern if there was a closer Midwestern city which it had cultural kinship with. Cincinnati is the nearest analogue to Pittsburgh in the Midwest, and it's on the far side of Ohio. If Steubanville were a major metropolitan area, on the other hand, we might have been having a different discussion.
Buffalo is more Midwestern than either. That doesn't make it part of the Midwest really. But it does show more linguistic, architectural, and cultural similarities with Cleveland than anywhere else. Whether that makes Cleveland Northeastern, or Buffalo Midwestern, is in the eye of the beholder.
When I am Buffalo, I often feel the same way. I think the two are a lot alike in many ways.
First of all, Wisconsin is hillier than you apparently are aware. Most of southern Wisconsin is moderately hilly. It's not the Appalachians like some parts of upstate NY, but it's sort of like Albany. Wisconsin also has that "town" system that you see in upstate NY. I know they have it in LI as well, but it's played out a little differently there, as LI is more urban/suburban rather than rural/small town/small city. I'm surprised to see there are few light blonds in NYC. That's quite interesting!
He was biking through the southern Tier, similar in terrain through Ithaca (he actually passed through Ithaca). My guess there are few hills that steep and large in Wisconsin? I've seen glimpses of southern Wisconsin from the window of an Amtrak train, I noticed some hills though smaller than western Massachusetts or the southern Tier of NY. Albany has some big hills to the west, in John Boyd Thatcher Park (maybe you have visited?)
That is the case in Illinois, too, with Chicago viz the rest of the state. Same arguments. However, it's pretty much, "we're all Illinoisans". Downstaters seem to feel they're more the "real" Illinoisans than the city people. We walked where Lincoln walked. Chicago is very involved with, well, Chicago. However, a lot of students from Chicago go to the U of IL downstate.
The fact that New York is the name of the city as well as the state as well as many outsiders assuming New York = the city might encourage the "we don't identify with New York".
He was biking through the southern Tier, similar in terrain through Ithaca (he actually passed through Ithaca). My guess there are few hills that steep and large in Wisconsin? I've seen glimpses of southern Wisconsin from the window of an Amtrak train, I noticed some hills though smaller than western Massachusetts or the southern Tier of NY. Albany has some big hills to the west, in John Boyd Thatcher Park (maybe you have visited?)
I don't know; it's been a while since I've been either place.
I lived in Pittsburgh and Philly and other places in PA. Philly is as close to Pittsburgh
as Memphis is to New York. Relative to PA, Pittsburgh is midwestern. A world apart
from anywhere else in PA. I live in KY now, and Pittsburgh is closer to Louisville and
other midwestern cities than any other PA metro area.
Yes Pittsburgh is a world apart from anything you find in PA.
The only other Large Metro area in PA is Philadelphia.
Everything else are small towns/Cities that feel closer to what you find in WV or KY (and many of those towns are more backwards than anything you can find in WV)
I grew up in NY and have also lived in Pittsburgh. It is very much a northeastern city
Yes Pittsburgh is a world apart from anything you find in PA.
The only other Large Metro area in PA is Philadelphia.
Everything else are small towns/Cities that feel closer to what you find in WV or KY (and many of those towns are more backwards than anything you can find in WV)
I grew up in NY and have also lived in Pittsburgh. It is very much a northeastern city
Lancaster, Scranton, etc. feel similar to Kentucky?
Lancaster, Scranton, etc. feel similar to Kentucky?
Both feel like Charleston or Huntington, WV - with a heavier religious underbelly.
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When I started talking to him he implied he was from either his starting point or destination, I couldn't tell for sure but I could make a very good (and correct) guess based off of his complexion; his very light blond hair made him look very not from the NYC metro and closer to a northern Midwest stereotype.
